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 Post subject: Damping sphere plus dictate of karametra
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 2:17 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-04 3:24 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: San Jose, California
Does having the sphere in play cause lands to tap for colorless?


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 Post subject: Re: Damping sphere plus dictate of karametra
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 2:48 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Dictate of Karametra doesn't cause an issue with Damping Sphere. It simply adds another mana.

Things like Mana Reflection, however, do get hosed by this. It's all in the wording.

Basically, if the effect says the controller adds the mana, it is fine, but if it adds a multiple, it is hosed.


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 Post subject: Re: Damping sphere plus dictate of karametra
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 2:49 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-04 3:24 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: San Jose, California
But Reflection has to be worded as such because it applies to permanents not just lands, so I'm still confused.


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 Post subject: Re: Damping sphere plus dictate of karametra
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 2:55 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Ok.. let me rephrase that, lands are hosed with Mana Reflection and Damping Sphere.

Other permanents are not.

Any land that natively taps for more than one mana are hosed. (Tron lands, Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Temple of the False God, Nykthos, etc)

If you put out Mana Flare instead of Mana Reflection, normal lands will still produce the one and then the Mana Flare triggers, giving additional mana.


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 Post subject: Re: Damping sphere plus dictate of karametra
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 3:11 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-04 3:24 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: San Jose, California
Ok so that makes more sense but the thing I'm still unclear about is: why would it matter that its caused by a triggered ability. Isn't Sphere a replacement effect? Or should I infer that because mana is being added by a triggered ability, that somehow gets around the replacement effect of Sphere?


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 Post subject: Re: Damping sphere plus dictate of karametra
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 3:13 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Dictate of Karametra produces the extra mana

Mana Reflection causes the mana producer to produce the extra mana

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 Post subject: Re: Damping sphere plus dictate of karametra
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 4:18 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
A few more for consideration... These sort of powerful hate-cards need to be well understood.

Caged Sun is immune to Damping Sphere's triggered ability. It's trigger generates the mana as a mana ability- but the mana isn't tethered to the land OR the Caged Sun itself. Caged Sun therefore only has to be around when the lands are tapped for mana- to see and generate the triggers. Sometimes a table will think CS, Zendikar Resurgent or Mirari's Wake can be outpaced by Krosan Grip or Ainok Survivalist because they use a triggered mana ability- and it also insulates them from Damping Sphere in the way Mana Flare and Dictate of Karametra are. Utopia Sprawl and Market Festival are also insulated.

In terms of templating- this is very specific to stop mass production of individual sources- as opposed to actually getting doublers. Mana Reflection is afaik uniquely effected by this. The design intent is likely a nod to Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun- but in EDH, it gets bonus points for restricting Nykthos, Ancient Tomb, Storage Lands, and other standard affair for bonus acceleration- it also quirky enough hits some things that aren't as powerful like Filters, Oddysey-Filters, Karoos etc. The most important reason to know this, is that you could accidentally use the Sphere to pressure down someone with a vulnerable start (like a Karoo start)- effectively performing early mana denial. Doing this carelessly will often the lead to you getting an unnecessary level of aggression from the table (IE, bad politics.) It belongs in a class of hate-cards that can make decisive counters- but functions best outside of a Stax deck, and not using it appropriately can lead to bad table manners, or group tension in a similar manner to Winter Orb, Orb of Dreams, or Pithing Needle (preemptively hosing a general like Roon, Feldon, Azami etc.)

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 Post subject: Double vs double :p
AgePosted: 2018-May-20 8:14 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
"Mana Doublers" is a misnomer, like "infinite" is (outside of silver border). Most effects don't actually double mana, they add an additional mana. Damping sphere is really lazer focused on beating high-tide effects and individual powerful lands with one effect, then stopping rapid combo and storm with the other. It might be the most perfectly templated hate-rock in the game.

It beats Bounce lands but leaves the drawback. It turns off filter lands. Ancient Tomb, Temple of the False God, and City of Traitors still have their drawbacks but tap like Zhalfirin Void.

I imagine only stacks/"stop playing" decks like the tax-storm effect enough to run the card, otherwise I'd expect this card to see a lot of play. Funnily enough you can still go Mana Crypt into Sol Ring into Mox Opal, but then your Jace, the Mind Sculptor would cost 7 thus ruining a perfect hand forever.

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 Post subject: Re: Double vs double :p
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 1:04 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Evilkritter wrote:
I imagine only stacks/"stop playing" decks like the tax-storm effect enough to run the card, otherwise I'd expect this card to see a lot of play. Funnily enough you can still go Mana Crypt into Sol Ring into Mox Opal, but then your Jace, the Mind Sculptor would cost 7 thus ruining a perfect hand forever.


Negatory, Batman- the effect is parallel, and ideally cast off of mana generated by an Ancient Tomb. At the level where you're going to be playing Mana Crypt, preemptively playing this gives your opponents information on how to play around it (IE, play like it's a Rule of Law with loopholes until they can get rid of it long enough to fire off and protect a combo.) This means that it has to compete with similar hate-cards, and, over the course of playtesting may not fit well into most established Stax builds. It's good practice to assume that your opponents are clever, and hold onto a card like this until it actually turns a combo off for a couple of turns- or to protect your own combo or win condition from Force/Pact/Daze. Recklessly using mana denial just because you can often spoils your ability to have any real effect on the game (where, in the hand- if the information isn't there, this could just as easily be a Swan Song or a card to pitch to Force- which will effect how your opponents play. Sphere can also punish YOU for trying to Ponder while holding a blue counter for protection.

In this scenario- your opponent is putting themselves down to 4 cards by playing 4 cards- which isn't as promising as dropping it before a potential Kiki-Jiki, or Teferi, Temporal Archmage where the effect matters.

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