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Card Unbannings
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18863
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Author:  Ulvkonge [ 2018-Jun-06 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Card Unbannings

Why was Protean Hulk unbanned?

Author:  spacemonaut [ 2018-Jun-06 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

Reasons were given in the April 2017 Banned List Announcement in which Protean Hulk was unbanned:

Quote:
On the other hand, we feel as though it’s time to let Protean Hulk off the leash. A number of factors led to this decision. Support within the community has been tilting toward Protean Hulk for quite some time. Inside the Rules Committee, we have been leaning in that direction for a while as well, but didn’t have enough of a consensus. Now we do. We acknowledge that the card will be strong, but are of the opinion that it won’t be the centralizing factor it once would have been. Back when Protean Hulk was banned, both creatures and graveyard control were nowhere near as strong as they are today. We know combo possibilities exist with the card, but they need to be specifically built around, so to us it becomes a great value card instead of a dangerous combo piece in casual environments. We suspect that Protean Hulk will be much like Kokusho, the Evening Star when it was unbanned: powerful but not broken in the current Commander landscape.


In general if you're wondering why a card was banned or unbanned, a good first port of call is to run a search in the Rules Announcements forum for the card's name.

Author:  Viperion [ 2018-Jun-06 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

And, much like Kokusho, there was much discussion when the unbanning happened, and then practically nothing since. I'm more than happy to see the big lug back in the environment :)

Author:  Uktabi_Kong [ 2018-Jun-06 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

The real question is why Hulk (and for that matter, Metalworker) got unbanned before Painter's Servant.

Author:  tgambitg [ 2018-Jun-06 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The real question is why Hulk (and for that matter, Metalworker) got unbanned before Painter's Servant.


To be fair there are a few cards that need to go away before Painter's Servant gets unbanned.

Though on a selfish side, PS will BREAK my Teysa Exile deck.

Author:  Uktabi_Kong [ 2018-Jun-06 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

tgambitg wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The real question is why Hulk (and for that matter, Metalworker) got unbanned before Painter's Servant.


To be fair there are a few cards that need to go away before Painter's Servant gets unbanned.

Though on a selfish side, PS will BREAK my Teysa Exile deck.

It is inconceivable to me that Hulk isn't a problem in a format where Lark, Karmic Guide, Body Double, Dark Mike, Kiki-Jiki, and Phyrexian Delver are all staples, yet Servant would be a problem in a format where Iona is hated out on arrival and every other problematic card is unplayable.

Also, I want it legal for my 8.5 Tails deck, even though it makes some of my swords of dogs and cats useless. It'll also be nice if/when I finally get around to building my Circu, and Treva decks.

Author:  tgambitg [ 2018-Jun-07 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The real question is why Hulk (and for that matter, Metalworker) got unbanned before Painter's Servant.


To be fair there are a few cards that need to go away before Painter's Servant gets unbanned.

Though on a selfish side, PS will BREAK my Teysa Exile deck.

It is inconceivable to me that Hulk isn't a problem in a format where Lark, Karmic Guide, Body Double, Dark Mike, Kiki-Jiki, and Phyrexian Delver are all staples, yet Servant would be a problem in a format where Iona is hated out on arrival and every other problematic card is unplayable.

Also, I want it legal for my 8.5 Tails deck, even though it makes some of my swords of dogs and cats useless. It'll also be nice if/when I finally get around to building my Circu, and Treva decks.


Oh I'm not saying Hulk isn't a problem at all... Just that there are quite a few cards that PS breaks fairly easily and what may seem innocently, but still is horrible. Teysa, Orzhov Scion plys any 3 white creatures (PS naming black) is one of them.

Author:  Uktabi_Kong [ 2018-Jun-07 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

I don't want to go down the same rabbit hole I've been down dozens of times before but fortunately, Teysa is one of only a few real offenders in that category. The only others I've ever come up with are Dromar, the Banisher, Wash Out, and planeswalker Ugin. Most of the other cards that have adverse effects to Servant are antisocial funsucks (Iona, Llawan), unplayable garbage (Grindstone), or in the vast majority of cases both (Flashfires, Deathgrip).

I honestly see Servant as being identical to most of the cards that appeared in the "I Need a Hero" thread. It's such a niche effect that it's really only worth playing if it directly interacts with your general (or you have some type of "color matters" theme going on).

Author:  Ulvkonge [ 2018-Jun-08 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

these are all fantastic things you guys are telling me. Now my next thing is what do I do about it since my entire play group switched to building around the flash hulk combo.

Author:  spacemonaut [ 2018-Jun-08 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

Ulvkonge wrote:
these are all fantastic things you guys are telling me. Now my next thing is what do I do about it since my entire play group switched to building around the flash hulk combo.

Ooer. That's no good.

Usually when any card totally warps a format around itself, you ban that card. Sounds like your local group needs to ban Flash and/or Protean Hulk.

It doesn't always warp around a former banlist card: there's someone on here a year ago where every player in their group ran Spore Frog as well as ways to get it back out of the graveyard, so it was almost impossible for anyone to wind up dealing combat damage.

Author:  niheloim [ 2018-Jun-08 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

tgambitg wrote:

Oh I'm not saying Hulk isn't a problem at all... Just that there are quite a few cards that PS breaks fairly easily and what may seem innocently, but still is horrible. Teysa, Orzhov Scion plys any 3 white creatures (PS naming black) is one of them.
Servant in teysa is hardly a problem.

You can achieve similar results already with Darkest Hour. I like pairing it with Phyrexian Plaguelord

Author:  tgambitg [ 2018-Jun-08 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

niheloim wrote:
tgambitg wrote:

Oh I'm not saying Hulk isn't a problem at all... Just that there are quite a few cards that PS breaks fairly easily and what may seem innocently, but still is horrible. Teysa, Orzhov Scion plys any 3 white creatures (PS naming black) is one of them.
Servant in teysa is hardly a problem.

You can achieve similar results already with Darkest Hour. I like pairing it with Phyrexian Plaguelord


No, you can't do the same with Darkest Hour. Darkest Hour turns the creatures black and removes all other colors. Painter's Servant ADDS black to the colors. Very key difference, especially with Teysa, Orzhov Scion.

From the Gatherer rulings on Darkest Hour:
Quote:
4/15/2013: Affected creatures lose all other colors and are mono-black.


For comparison, Painter's Servant has:
Quote:
5/1/2008: This ability doesn't overwrite any previous colors. Rather, it adds another color.

Author:  MRHblue [ 2018-Jun-08 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

Ulvkonge wrote:
these are all fantastic things you guys are telling me. Now my next thing is what do I do about it since my entire play group switched to building around the flash hulk combo.
I guess that depends on how combo the meta was before. If its new, then start packing hate, especially counters. If thats the only combo, its a lot easier to tech against.

The actual answer though, is talk to them. If they all like Hulk combo, you have to decide if thats fun enough for you. If they all hate it, ban it, or flash.

Author:  niheloim [ 2018-Jun-10 6:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

tgambitg wrote:
niheloim wrote:
tgambitg wrote:

Oh I'm not saying Hulk isn't a problem at all... Just that there are quite a few cards that PS breaks fairly easily and what may seem innocently, but still is horrible. Teysa, Orzhov Scion plys any 3 white creatures (PS naming black) is one of them.
Servant in teysa is hardly a problem.

You can achieve similar results already with Darkest Hour. I like pairing it with Phyrexian Plaguelord


No, you can't do the same with Darkest Hour. Darkest Hour turns the creatures black and removes all other colors. Painter's Servant ADDS black to the colors. Very key difference, especially with Teysa, Orzhov Scion.

From the Gatherer rulings on Darkest Hour:
Quote:
4/15/2013: Affected creatures lose all other colors and are mono-black.


For comparison, Painter's Servant has:
Quote:
5/1/2008: This ability doesn't overwrite any previous colors. Rather, it adds another color.

yes you can
Teysa says to create a white token whenever your black creatures die.
Darkest hour makes these tokens black
You can then sac them to any available ability without end.
So, you can't sac 3 white creatures to Teysa's ability, but I can sac to Phyrexian Plaguelord as much as I want to clear the board of any creatures I can target.

Author:  tgambitg [ 2018-Jun-10 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Card Unbannings

niheloim wrote:
yes you can
Teysa says to create a white token whenever your black creatures die.
Darkest hour makes these tokens black
You can then sac them to any available ability without end.
So, you can't sac 3 white creatures to Teysa's ability, but I can sac to Phyrexian Plaguelord as much as I want to clear the board of any creatures I can target.


That is not the reason you would put Painter's Servant in a Teysa, Orzhov Scion deck though. And Phyrexian Plaguelord doesn't care about the color of the deck, it only cares about whether the creature exists. I mean yes, Teysa will give you infinite creatures, but you're sending them to the graveyard, not exile, which is why they need to be white.

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