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 Post subject: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-07 5:03 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I've been running annual polls to see what cards people want banned, so if anyone wants to participate, the link is here:

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the ... nlist-poll


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-08 2:50 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Cards I have personally banned from my own decks:
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Deadeye Navigator
Consecrated Sphinx
Cyclonic Rift
*Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Tooth and Nail
Expropriate
Blightsteel Colossus
Palinchron
*Conflux
*Bribery
*Clock of Omens
*Mycosynth Lattice
*Enchanted Evening
*Exsanguinate
*Debt to the Deathless
*Karametra, God of Harvests
Triumph of the Hordes

Cards which I maybe shouldn't be playing (for the sake of the overall fun of the whole table), but still do:
Rhystic Study
Skullclamp
Enlightened Tutor
Worldly Tutor
*Mana Reflection
*Zendikar Resurgent
*Mirari's Wake
*Caged Sun
*Regal Behemoth
*Growing Rites of Itlimoc
*Eye of the Storm
*Dream Halls
*Shared Fate
*Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
*Sorin Markov
*Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
*Gaddock Teeg
Seedborn Muse
Cabal Coffers
*Confusion in the Ranks
Craterhoof Behemoth
*Blatant Thievery
*Overwhelming Splendor

(* not mentioned in the MtGSally poll)
I am not advocating the RC ban any of the above cards. I definitely wouldn't miss any of the ones on my self-ban list, and I'm not claiming that my self-banned cards are more detrimental than any of those on the second list. These are just my observations of when 'fun' sometimes leaves the room.

Cards I feel at least 80% confident could safely come off the ban list:
Library of Alexandria
Braids, Cabal Minion

Cards I am less than 80% confident, but still would like to see unbanned:
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Balance
Painter's Servant


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-08 3:45 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I won't bother posting my opinion as people are probably tired of me saying it, but I am curious how many people took the poll. It seems like it was only between 15-20 people. If that is the case it was fairly futile.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-08 5:02 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
I won't bother posting my opinion as people are probably tired of me saying it, but I am curious how many people took the poll. It seems like it was only between 15-20 people. If that is the case it was fairly futile.

Well it just got posted last night. This makes the fourth time and the previous three we had well over 100 participants each time..


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-08 7:05 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Unban these: Gifts Ungiven, Recurring Nightmare*, Prophet of Kruphix, and maybe Primeval Titan

Swap Painter's Servant for Iona

Bring back "Banned as Commander", and go back to allowing Rofellos and Braids to be in the 99 but not the command zone.

*the only one of these I'm being somewhat cheeky about is Recurring Nightmare - I think it's probably correct for the RC to keep it on the list, ESPECIALLY since they unbanned Protean Hulk. Having both of those in the format is probably a terrible idea. BUT... of the two, I'd rather have Nightmare than Hulk, so I'd be fine with swapping Nightmare for Hulk, or just leaving Nightmare banned. But I really, really love the card, so I have to lobby for it even if I think it's flirting with disaster.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-08 7:32 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Agreed. I REALLY want RN unbanned, but truthfully there are so many good ETB/dies creatures running around that the card would end up centralizing the game as soon as it came out.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-08 11:15 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RN is busted.
It's legal in Duel Commander where there is less fast mana, and it's still ridiculous to cycle your "etb card draw" for "etb kill/bounce your guy" or your "etb bounce a permanent to owner's hand" or your "etb untap all your lands".

I voted for Helm of Obedience, Humility and Grip of Chaos, pretty sure.
One ends the game immediately with Rest in Peace, the other obviates commanders and the last just stalls the game out.

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Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature themed casual fun.
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Chaos, horsemanship and storm!
Jugan, the Rising Star - Lifeblood Hydra is good, who knew?
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Aminatou, the Fateshifter - ETB and Felidar Guardian-Oath of Teferi shenanigans.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Bridgehead Westboro for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-08 11:20 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:

Cards I feel at least 80% confident could safely come off the ban list:
Library of Alexandria
Braids, Cabal Minion

Cards I am less than 80% confident, but still would like to see unbanned:
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Balance
Painter's Servant


I feel duty-bound to point out that Tolarian Academy and Library of Alexandiria should never intersect as if the format is too fast for Academy due to mana rocks, LoA will struggle to function consistently.

Warble said it best though, so I'm just going to link to his post:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4229

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature themed casual fun.
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Chaos, horsemanship and storm!
Jugan, the Rising Star - Lifeblood Hydra is good, who knew?
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Aminatou, the Fateshifter - ETB and Felidar Guardian-Oath of Teferi shenanigans.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Bridgehead Westboro for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-09 8:05 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Went and looked at the poll and some of the responses.... and it just made me glad that the ban list isn't determined via popular vote.

I understand it's just opinion -- but some people don't seem to grasp what makes for a good ban list. Comments like (all paraphrased) "I haven't seen other Eldrazi cards except in niche decks, so maybe Emrakul will be ok now?" or "Braids only hurts decks that just land ramp in the early game" or "Academy doesn't get degenerate"; those all show me that people are missing key points around the cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-09 11:04 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I haven't used my MTGS account since before they went to Curse, and I'm probably not going to spend the time to unlock it for this vote, I might have a look after work.

In any case, I would add votes to ban Iona, I know it doesn't need to be banned, I just think it would be a good "signaling ban", by which I mean it is a statement that stopping people from playing magic is not the purpose of the fun casual format.

I would be very interested in having RN unbanned, even as a trial, but I understand why it's locked up.

Also I still strongly disagree about unbanning gifts ungiven, that conversation has well and truly been had so I'll leave it at that.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-09 11:47 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Is there a way to see how many unique users voted in the poll?

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-09 12:09 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
Is there a way to see how many unique users voted in the poll?

Count the number of people who vote for Black Lotus is the easy answer. I don't have back door access any more, but I can ask our tech guy for more info about the poll later on.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-10 5:44 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Didn't vote- don't really do much but lurk on Sally. A few thoughts though.

Craterhoof Behemoth is reasonable- not simply because of it's interaction with Tooth and Nail, but it's particular form of haste granting is less effort than other methods. There are many fully playable variants that situationally perform more (a 'la Decimator of the Provinces or Soul of Theros.) Ofcourse if you scale up Goblin Bushwhacker that much, it's going to bust a combat focused format. I however think that Craterhoof. and not T&N are the primary source of that- any way to tutor hoof will do that in an environment where White and Green don't go vertical or horizontal- they just swell; and most of the time that's good for the game- but hoof puts so much emphasis on tutor or castcheating on an alpha strike that it's the same sort of power as most other centralizing combos. If you can fog hoof, it's almost completely incorrect not to copy it if you're able to to enable your own fattie. Hoof countering is the strongest feature of Rite of Replication and many scaled down variants; just like Primeval Titan, Prophet of Kruphix, and (to a lesser degree in my opinion) Sylvan Primordial.

My doubts regarding a Craterhoof ban are mostly related to the types of metas it thrives best in. It isn't without numerous easy-to-access counters- but Hoof is the easiest Triumph of the Hordes or Overwhelming Stampede to tutor and recur. But when it is well timed, it does tend to alpha strike the entire table. Since the qualifier for the banlist has to do with discouraging certain types of cards, a massive haste granting, mass pumping fatty wouldn't be unheard of as creating numerous problems given battlecruiser conditions. It's a combo kill that plays well in a high pressure or token management strategy where the 8 mana cost isn't remotely prohibitive- and the haste-granting ability makes it scale further without requiring an entire extra piece to setup.

Expropriate, Iona, Shield of Emeria, and Mana Crypt also seem to be reasonable choices to me- not necessarily for the power, but for how often they create anti-climactic games (I think Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Old Briney Bastard, and Yosei are the upper limits of safe anti-climax cards because they act more as counterplay to the regular type of combo Magic that he expect to be at the table.) The best argument against them is philosophical about not wanting the EDH banlist to get convoluted- I think the list could use a small extension- but the additions should have more to do with how the card behaves in a way that the formatting naturally tries to restrict (IE, not Sol Ring, which is another reasonable card to question- but ultimately only quickens games as opposed to making them go lame.)

My biggest personal pick for a ban though is Intuition. I don't think a tutor that flexible is appropriate- it has the pedigree to crush any sort of singleton play with even less opportunity cost than Demonic Tutor. As far as tutors go, it only has particularly strong benefits for combo decks that are redundant with many other non Gifts, non Intuition cards- but Gifts and Intuition do it at such a rate that expecting counterplay is much less reasonable. They hit a particularly brutal part of the bell curve where they're less useful for control, or other slow strategies that use them for advantage or disruption tools- but so brutally efficient that they can functionally confirm many 2 card combos .

As for unbannings- I'm mostly interested in Sundering Titan and Sylvan Primordial as prospects. Much like everything else not Intuition, I don't think I independently have an understanding so great that I can say whether or not it's the right call or not. I honestly wouldn't mind a Painter's Servant deck in my meta that didn't have access to Intuition or Iona- and I've heard good argumentation about Recurring Nightmare being a reasonable unban given the relatively large increase in quality of graveyard and enchantment hate.

To be completely fair, I think people obsess over the banlist quite a bit more than we should. We should by-in-large be able to play the game how we like, but the banlist should serve to discourage certain types of cards more than it should encourage us to seek the most similar-but-not variants in the cardpool. I think some of the more unique cases are permissible to ban- as opposed to the method many people seem to use which is to target one of the most powerful categorical cards- without consideration for what the gap between them actually is. Ban Rift, bring back the Wash Out, Capsize, and Temporal Fissure days. But banning Mana Vault is a case study in what makes the fast rocks great- but by the most insane margin in the game. Iona is a case study in single card locks. Hoof is a case study in alpha striking tools. Expropriate and Intuition are in a class of their own for utility cards. For me, atleast; the banlist is about covering massive exceptions where everything similar doesn't have an even remotely similar margin of outright removing all tension from a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-10 6:02 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
Craterhoof Behemoth is reasonable- not simply because of it's interaction with Tooth and Nail, but it's particular form of haste granting is less effort than other methods.

[...]

Since the qualifier for the banlist has to do with discouraging certain types of cards, a massive haste granting, mass pumping fatty wouldn't be unheard of as creating numerous problems given battlecruiser conditions. It's a combo kill that plays well in a high pressure or token management strategy where the 8 mana cost isn't remotely prohibitive- and the haste-granting ability makes it scale further without requiring an entire extra piece to setup.


It doesn't grant haste to anything, it has haste and just it. I've seen several people Tooth and Nail for Hoof and Avenger of Zendikar and do the math and go "+10/+10 each, i attack for over 100", i wonder if maybe people thought that so much that when they tell other people they gloss over rereading the card?

-------

Also, unban Library already. Card is bad and has no logical reason to be banned.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-10 6:22 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
Mr Degradation wrote:
Craterhoof Behemoth is reasonable- not simply because of it's interaction with Tooth and Nail, but it's particular form of haste granting is less effort than other methods.

[...]

Since the qualifier for the banlist has to do with discouraging certain types of cards, a massive haste granting, mass pumping fatty wouldn't be unheard of as creating numerous problems given battlecruiser conditions. It's a combo kill that plays well in a high pressure or token management strategy where the 8 mana cost isn't remotely prohibitive- and the haste-granting ability makes it scale further without requiring an entire extra piece to setup.


It doesn't grant haste to anything, it has haste and just it. I've seen several people Tooth and Nail for Hoof and Avenger of Zendikar and do the math and go "+10/+10 each, i attack for over 100", i wonder if maybe people thought that so much that when they tell other people they gloss over rereading the card?

-------

Also, unban Library already. Card is bad and has no logical reason to be banned.


Lol, my bad. I haven't read the card more in atleast 3 years. It usually just reads "combat math, combat math, dead" or "Oh cool, time to play a Rout variant." It has haste and pumps itself as a bonus not the other way around.

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