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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-16 2:30 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't think people are saying LoA is bad, just that it isn't nearly as good as the hype it gets. Just like Reliquary Tower isn't a bad card, it simply isn't going to be active that often when you jam it into a random deck.

Just my two cents. I've made my stance on that card very well known to the five people who matter most.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-16 3:20 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
The LoA debate was had in 2010 at great length at one point, and I'll quote papa_funk's post from the top of page 3:

papa_funk wrote:
Library exists at the intersection of cost and ubiquity. Perform the following thought experiment: which card, banned or unbanned, would cause the average cost of all EDH decks to fluctuate the most? I'd be impressed if someone could argue anything other than LoA.

The other cards in its cost class (Tabernacle, Workshop) tend to be niche cards and far from an obvious improvement to, say, 50% of the decks out there.

~~~~

Because I don't want this thread to be just another Debate LoA thread I'll submit my ban list preference: I'd just ban some of the standard shutdown bogeymen. Right now those that come to mind are these:
(No cards unbanned.)

I would ban these cards under the criteria “Creates Undesirable Game States.”

These cards specifically take agency out of players' hands in an unhealthy way. They create a game state in which one or more players can no longer meaningfully participate or follow a coherent game plan, whether by explicit design or by notorious effect. This is combined with the fact that they do not, extremely soon after doing this, make anyone win or the shut-out player lose. A player can be shut out by one of these cards and then a game can continue for an hour or more longer, without the player being eliminated or freed for the entire game's duration. They are left in a limbo where they might as well scoop or ought to hold out for the off chance they are freed (which may never happen) or for the off chance someone will eliminate them (which might also never happen, because it may be they can just be safely ignored for the rest of the game).

Eye of the Storm is a card I have only seen and heard played in such high-chaos decks that the game devolves into nonsense or slow play, with some stories about surprising finishes coming out of it. I don't consider this to be a desirable game state for any groups except those who explicitly consent to this and want to explore this, which can be those intimate groups that decide to play with this card despite it being banned.

I have the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that EDH is about enabling each player to bring their own awesome unique expression to the table using some of their most loved cards. Being shut out of the game is antithetical to that. Maybe someone's unique expression would involve these cards... but they can find other stuff to play with.

I do not consider it an acceptable remedy that they can be resolved by sufficient table politics or by drawing the exact correct card (e.g. Krosan Grip).

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-16 3:08 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Timetwister. Did I impress him?

======

While the overall number of voters is disappointingly low as compared to previous years, the trend is holding fast that Gifts and Painter's each have under half the votes. Similarly, Iona has more than half and Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are just under half. Don't know if this means anything to the RC since that set of cards are the ones which seem to get the most discussion nowadays. Sheldon, papa funk, are you guys paying any attention to the poll this year?


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-17 10:37 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
^ No offense, my dude- but the RC has stated that the format is better than it has ever been since Leovold got the axe and our friendly Hulk came back into the fold. To be really honest, I think the RC mostly tunes out "balance talk" among the community, because the appeal to populace leans the format too hard into a competitive mindset. We do need to account for the fact that the RC's playgroups tend to play on the higher end of the power spectrum, but attempt to strip down power in favor of flavor.

Rather, while it's awesome for us to have these discussions about our own opinions- It's simply only our place to make these decisions in our own sessions with our own groups. Valuable as our input may be; what we want may diverge too much from the RC's goals.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 1:21 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
Valuable as our input may be; what we want may diverge too much from the RC's goals.

That's incredibly true. They have a collective goal in mind for the gameplay that they want to foster with this format. We can see that goal through some of their posts, and through the banning criteria that they've given us.

If people don't keep that in mind when answering your survey (which I'm betting they don't -- either 'cuz they want something different, or they don't know what the RC's goal is) then the survey results don't really mean much.

Catering to what the everyday person wants for the format sounds good -- but sometimes the everyday person doesn't realize what they really want.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 1:53 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Oh I know well and good that they manage the format how they see fit, no matter what external push back they get. Case in point, Sheldon once famously said something along the lines of he would rather see the format die under their vision than change to something else. But at the same time, they should be acknowledging what a lot of people are saying (and no I'm not trying to imply that this year's poll or even MTGS in general is "a lot of people"). Sol Ring is a card that I feel comfortable saying 30-40% of people online think should be banned. Iona is similarly talked about, and not just in the context of exchanging her and Painter. People legitimately think these cards are bad for the format. Period. Protean Hulk is an card people thought would be a huge boogeyman and barely gets talked about, yet Gifts remains on the sidelines, presumably ignored.

This isn't me wanting a particular card unbanned (the only two cards I desire I know won't be legal ever), nor is it wanting more recognition for another web site. It's frustration that the format has grown well beyond the imagination of what a handful of players in Alaska ever dreamed it could be, and is now a global phenomenon being managed by five guys who have a somewhat unrealistic view of the format.

(Please note Sheldon and co., I mean absolutely no disrespect for you guys, the job you do, nor the amount of time and effort you have put into this. I simply feel the frustration of many who don't get the same level of enjoyment as you guys because they choose not to or are unable to play in the same fashion as you do.)


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 2:30 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
I definitely don't expect the RC to do anything just on account of my post, and won't be upset if those cards remain unbanned. :P I am sure my vision for the format is at least a bit different from theirs.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 2:44 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
being managed by five guys who have a somewhat unrealistic view of the format.

In what way do you feel it is unrealistic?


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 4:53 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
cryogen wrote:
being managed by five guys who have a somewhat unrealistic view of the format.

In what way do you feel it is unrealistic?

It's not realistic that people can find a group of players that align with them. You've got playing online, cEDH crowds, stores holding events, and lots of public play. Quite simply, not everyone has the luxury of a stable group or multiple decks to swap out. Not to mention people in small communities that are left with the option of playing with whomever is available or not playing at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 5:34 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Look at the latest video by the Command Zone - they ran analysis on over 300 games and, much to everyone's surprise - they found that in those 300 games, a Turn 1 Sol Ring decreased your winning percentage, presumably because of the target it puts on your head. Turns out, Sol Ring is not this amazingly great card.

Also, they found that going first increases your winning percentage significantly, which I found interesting, but somewhat made sense when you think about it - all other things being equal, it's the first player who gets to the 'critical turn' (whether that's 6 mana or 12 mana) first, and that increases the odds of winning the game outright by about 5% (from 25% to 30% which is a 25% increase in the chance to win)

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

"I'm happy to serve as a quote machine" - Sheldon


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 5:56 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Look at the latest video by the Command Zone - they ran analysis on over 300 games and, much to everyone's surprise - they found that in those 300 games, a Turn 1 Sol Ring decreased your winning percentage, presumably because of the target it puts on your head. Turns out, Sol Ring is not this amazingly great card.

Also, they found that going first increases your winning percentage significantly, which I found interesting, but somewhat made sense when you think about it - all other things being equal, it's the first player who gets to the 'critical turn' (whether that's 6 mana or 12 mana) first, and that increases the odds of winning the game outright by about 5% (from 25% to 30% which is a 25% increase in the chance to win)

Link?


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 6:09 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Look at the latest video by the Command Zone - they ran analysis on over 300 games


While 300 games is not nothing, a lot of variables can skew this. Are they the same 4 people? Is it all in one region? What is the skill level varience between players?

To get some real data we would need to get a much larger sample size, say 600 players. Now we can add even more variables if we want I guess, those 600 people play how many games per month? I play almost 0 games in paper, but I have started playing MTGO again and have gotten in about 30 games this month. I would say I am a pretty average player, on MTGO I have a limited rating of 1575, constructed 1581. I know the DCI doesn't really do that for paper magic anymore but since you started at 1600, and I am a tad below that it means a few things: 1 I either play risky decks (I do, I sometimes play the "best deck" but often play what I like rather than the Ravager of the format), 2 I play a fair amount of multiplayer in constructed and so winning 25% of the games is pretty acceptable. 3 I am unlikely to win the next GP/Nats/etc. but I could win an FNM if I get the meta right and get decent breaks. I play almost 0 games in paper, but I have started playing MTGO again and have gotten in about 30 games this month.

We don't really know how many people play EDH, but WotC frequently have said that roughly 20 million play Magic of some form. If we determine that maybe 1:20 play EDH (which is probably too high but several people will play one format as their main jam but also branch out to 2-3 others) then to get a significant sample we would need probably at a minimum 600 people. I didn't do that math in my head, I used a calculator found here https://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm doing a margin of error of 4 and 95% confidence level. Now we can add even more variables if we want I guess, those 600 people play how many games per month?

tl:dr while this is interesting, it is too small a sample size to get any real data.

_________________
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."
J. R. R. Tolkien

Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


Last edited by Inkeyes22 on 2018-Oct-18 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 6:31 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
Viperion wrote:
Look at the latest video by the Command Zone - they ran analysis on over 300 games and, much to everyone's surprise - they found that in those 300 games, a Turn 1 Sol Ring decreased your winning percentage, presumably because of the target it puts on your head. Turns out, Sol Ring is not this amazingly great card
Link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwdb_kPCwNU

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

"I'm happy to serve as a quote machine" - Sheldon


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 7:54 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen: I don't feel that's unrealistic at all. You can't cater to everyone and make everyone happy. So instead, they've identified the type of play that they enjoy (and that has seemingly made the format grow in popularity) and are staying true to those ideals.

Changing things up just because someone runs it as a tournament doesn't make sense. It's like banning Manakin because someone has a houserule that it produced 20 mana of any colour.

That other people try to use the popular format in other places is good (mostly) ... but that doesn't mean that the core format should change just to make some things easier for those people.

It's like them trying to use this neat looking saw as something to propel a nail into a wood board -- sure, it can work, but there's problems with it. Doesn't mean the makers of the saw should change their design at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban List Poll
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-18 9:18 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
cryogen: I don't feel that's unrealistic at all. You can't cater to everyone and make everyone happy. So instead, they've identified the type of play that they enjoy (and that has seemingly made the format grow in popularity) and are staying true to those ideals.

Changing things up just because someone runs it as a tournament doesn't make sense. It's like banning Manakin because someone has a houserule that it produced 20 mana of any colour.

That other people try to use the popular format in other places is good (mostly) ... but that doesn't mean that the core format should change just to make some things easier for those people.

It's like them trying to use this neat looking saw as something to propel a nail into a wood board -- sure, it can work, but there's problems with it. Doesn't mean the makers of the saw should change their design at all.

If the makers of that saw were gathering feedback and saw that a large portion of people who purchased their saw were in fact using it to hammer a nail, I think they would be reevaluating their saw, if only to see how they could market it better.

I'm not suggesting that the RC give serious thought to banning something like Rhystic Study because one percent of the population thinks it ought to be banned. But I think a card like Iona, which has only negative uses and a large number of people across various forums have complained about for years is something which should have actual consideration.


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