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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 7:35 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Location: Tampa, FL, USA
For clarification's sake, you do not need to identify a face-down morph as your commander until it becomes relevant (like dealing commander damage). I suspect the jig might be up if you cast it from the command zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 12:15 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
For clarification's sake, you do not need to identify a face-down morph as your commander until it becomes relevant (like dealing commander damage). I suspect the jig might be up if you cast it from the command zone.


Is it legal to play other morph creatures and then do the shell game to obfuscate which is my general?


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 12:35 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yes and no. Let's say your commander has morph and is in your hand. You play a morph. You play another morph. You play another morph. Currently no one (except you) knows who your Commander is. However, as soon as it deals combat damage to another player you must declare it and from that point on as long as it remains in play everyone is allowed to know which of your morphs is your Commander at any time, even if you shuffle the cards around on the playing surface (note this is true for any other morph where the players know what it is, as well).

Note that currently this literally only applies to RAkroma, so your choice of other morphs is somewhat limited ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-22 8:01 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
CR 707.6 says we should be able to distinguish individual morph cards from each other, so we can't just pick up our morph cards and shuffle them around — they're not interchangeable. This means if I'm your opponent I'm entitled to know "which is the one that you cast from the command zone?" or "which one did you cast morphed from the library?" (say with Vizier of the Menagerie).

Viperion's scenario would work though, since all I really know for distinguishing them is which one was cast first and second from your hand.

CR wrote:
707.6 If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-23 9:31 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Remember when this nonsense came up after Manifest and and Essence of the Wild? Ugh.

And then was it an Essence of the Wild that's face down but can unmorph into a creature *not* an Essence of the Wild, or is still Essence of the Wild and therefore you could unmorph and Minfested Sorcery. I really don't even recall all that was determined about all that.

Anyway, to OP question, i use red sleeves on my commanders and black on my 98/99 for years and they have never ended up in my deck. I keep red sleeves on my commanders even when they are in my hand, which happens all the time because why would you not play CycRift if you have blue. I keep red sleeves on them while they are in my graveyard and that doesn't matter either. If they went to my library i suppose i'd grab extra sleeves but i have hard time thinking of any scenario that will realistically come up. The only thing that ever comes up is Timetwister and there's not a compelling reason to put them in the deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-23 12:07 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Sheldon wrote:
For clarification's sake, you do not need to identify a face-down morph as your commander until it becomes relevant (like dealing commander damage). I suspect the jig might be up if you cast it from the command zone.

Well crud... all this time I've been thinking morph was from the hand only (I bet I mixed it up with suspend)

I might need to build red akroma after all...

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-23 12:29 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Carthain wrote:
niheloim: You need to update whatever you are referencing. There is no 903.13 anymore.

903.11 is all about Brawl, and that's as high as 903 goes.

The rule you quoted is old, and no longer around (it didn't just shift numbers) as far as I can see.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 0974380760

Wizards should update the stuff they host online then.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-23 3:09 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Carthain wrote:
niheloim: You need to update whatever you are referencing. There is no 903.13 anymore.

903.11 is all about Brawl, and that's as high as 903 goes.

The rule you quoted is old, and no longer around (it didn't just shift numbers) as far as I can see.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 0974380760

Wizards should update the stuff they host online then.

Unfortunately, Google always directs you to this old version of the CR from 2013. For the current rules, you need to go to Wizard's rules page.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-24 8:12 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Willbender wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Carthain wrote:
niheloim: You need to update whatever you are referencing. There is no 903.13 anymore.

903.11 is all about Brawl, and that's as high as 903 goes.

The rule you quoted is old, and no longer around (it didn't just shift numbers) as far as I can see.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 0974380760

Wizards should update the stuff they host online then.

Unfortunately, Google always directs you to this old version of the CR from 2013. For the current rules, you need to go to Wizard's rules page.

yeah, I figured that out after another search. But it makes me wonder why the older version is accessible at all. Is there a link to all the archived version? or did wizards just leave it up while linking to the current version from their rules page?

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-25 12:56 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Carthain wrote:
niheloim: You need to update whatever you are referencing. There is no 903.13 anymore.

903.11 is all about Brawl, and that's as high as 903 goes.

The rule you quoted is old, and no longer around (it didn't just shift numbers) as far as I can see.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 0974380760

Wizards should update the stuff they host online then.

Strikes me that it's a little bit on you as well for using a 2013 document.

What are you searching that this is the preferred link? I did a search for "mtg comp rules" and that link is there -- but it's 3rd. Ahead of it in 2nd place is a rules pdf from july 2018, and in first place is the proper link where WotC stores updated links to the rules.

I'm much more willing to click to one site, and then click on another link to ensure I have accurate data instead of clicking on a random PDF that google provides for me. You can't just always trust what google gives to you (as you demonstrated.)


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-25 4:35 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It's not that WotC isn't keeping things up to date. They are: visit the CR page like someone said and follow the link to the most recent file.

WotC hosts all the versions of the CR that have ever been printed, so that people referencing them can follow the links and see what was in them. It simply doesn't remove those files. But it's not like it's making this hard to notice either: the second line of that linked CR PDF is “These rules are effective as of November 1, 2013.”

It's on us to make sure we're referencing the correct up-to-date rules documents. That includes that if we're using a third-party rules archive (MTG Gamepedia, Yawgatog, MagicJudges.org, etc) we need to double check it's up to date—there are times last year where Yawgatog spent a concerning amount of time without being updated to the latest CR.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-25 4:55 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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Yeah, I tend to use Yawgatog when I'm looking up a rule. The links back and forth are amazing :)

He's usually got it up to date -- but if someone were to challenge what I pulled from there, I'd certainly give them the benefit of the doubt and go look up the proper source to figure it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-27 10:13 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Carthain wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Carthain wrote:
niheloim: You need to update whatever you are referencing. There is no 903.13 anymore.

903.11 is all about Brawl, and that's as high as 903 goes.

The rule you quoted is old, and no longer around (it didn't just shift numbers) as far as I can see.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 0974380760

Wizards should update the stuff they host online then.

Strikes me that it's a little bit on you as well for using a 2013 document.

What are you searching that this is the preferred link? I did a search for "mtg comp rules" and that link is there -- but it's 3rd. Ahead of it in 2nd place is a rules pdf from july 2018, and in first place is the proper link where WotC stores updated links to the rules.

I'm much more willing to click to one site, and then click on another link to ensure I have accurate data instead of clicking on a random PDF that google provides for me. You can't just always trust what google gives to you (as you demonstrated.)

When I search "mtg comp rules" the rules page is the first link.

A direct link to the 2013 document is 2nd link... The most current doesn't show at all.

why would I not want to go straight to the document? Why would I at all expect the directly-linked document to be outdated? The link I see doesn't say "archived" or anything like that.

This might not be Wizard's fault... but seriously, why would a 2013 document come up instead of the most recent? Makes me wonder how Google is pulling these links.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-27 2:29 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Once we set up the rules so that it was incredibly unlikely that a Commander would get shuffled in, we mostly stopped worrying about it. I think the default rules of Magic work fine now.

It might be easier to let Akroma be a random morph that doesn't deal Commander damage. I'll poke at the rules and talk with the gang about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-27 3:14 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
Once we set up the rules so that it was incredibly unlikely that a Commander would get shuffled in, we mostly stopped worrying about it. I think the default rules of Magic work fine now.

It might be easier to let Akroma be a random morph that doesn't deal Commander damage. I'll poke at the rules and talk with the gang about it.

Pointing out stuff you no doubt already know but for the benefit of others;

You'd have to worry about things like manifested Commanders and Ixidron'd Commanders as well; sure the simplest rule would be "Face down Commanders don't deal Commander damage" but that makes Ixidron a pretty good Commander killing tool.

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