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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-27 3:14 pm 
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papa_funk wrote:
Once we set up the rules so that it was incredibly unlikely that a Commander would get shuffled in, we mostly stopped worrying about it. I think the default rules of Magic work fine now.

It might be easier to let Akroma be a random morph that doesn't deal Commander damage. I'll poke at the rules and talk with the gang about it.

Pointing out stuff you no doubt already know but for the benefit of others;

You'd have to worry about things like manifested Commanders and Ixidron'd Commanders as well; sure the simplest rule would be "Face down Commanders don't deal Commander damage" but that makes Ixidron a pretty good Commander killing tool.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-27 11:27 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
Once we set up the rules so that it was incredibly unlikely that a Commander would get shuffled in, we mostly stopped worrying about it. I think the default rules of Magic work fine now.

It might be easier to let Akroma be a random morph that doesn't deal Commander damage. I'll poke at the rules and talk with the gang about it.

Pointing out stuff you no doubt already know but for the benefit of others;

You'd have to worry about things like manifested Commanders and Ixidron'd Commanders as well; sure the simplest rule would be "Face down Commanders don't deal Commander damage" but that makes Ixidron a pretty good Commander killing tool.

Don't face down permanents still have a tracked order though? So if Ixidron turned everything facedown, shouldn't you still know which one was the Commander?

Not that I disagree with you, a rule like that would be simpler. Or maybe "your commander must be identifiable in order to deal combat damage".


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-28 3:38 am 
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The way it works now is perfectly acceptable and in line with the flavor of morph. Your commander gets manifested, you cast Akroma, angel of fury or your general with illusionary mask face down from your hand. Just like with any morphed creature your opponent has to guess based on the information they know. In this case, do I risk that this face down creature is his general and he deals the last 2 general damage needed to kill me? Or is this a willbender that's going to redirect my removal spell and hose me?

As it stands now, before damage gets dealt, you reveal your general and they take the commander damage. It's in line with how facedown generals have worked traditionally for years, and there hasn't been any radical changes in WOTC rules that would warrant a change out of the blue now.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Feb-28 4:18 am 
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cryogen wrote:
Don't face down permanents still have a tracked order though? So if Ixidron turned everything facedown, shouldn't you still know which one was the Commander?

Not that I disagree with you, a rule like that would be simpler. Or maybe "your commander must be identifiable in order to deal combat damage".

Yes, see this post I wrote last page. For Ixidron you'd be enabled to distinguish "that face down permanent is their commander because I saw it before it got turned face down". Not that your opponent is necessarily obligated to help you remember which was which long term, but it just means they're not allowed to shift them around like the three cups magical trick until you forget which was which.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-01 3:41 am 
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niheloim wrote:
why would I not want to go straight to the document?

... because, as is the case, the direct link is outdated? I mean, it's got the 2013 date in the file name (if you're paying attention to where the link is going, but not the file name it's going to... then that's on you) and it mentions it's from 2013 on the first page that shows when it opens up.

There's a certain amount of culpability you need to own here :)

niheloim wrote:
Why would I at all expect the directly-linked document to be outdated? The link I see doesn't say "archived" or anything like that.

This might not be Wizard's fault... but seriously, why would a 2013 document come up instead of the most recent? Makes me wonder how Google is pulling these links.

I suspect it shows high on google's rankings because people keep clicking on it :P


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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-02 4:14 pm 
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Bruticus wrote:
As it stands now, before damage gets dealt, you reveal your general and they take the commander damage. It's in line with how facedown generals have worked traditionally for years, and there hasn't been any radical changes in WOTC rules that would warrant a change out of the blue now.

Where in the rules does it say this? I have found nothing in either the comp rules or the rules on this website to support this claim.

As far as I've been told, as being a commander is a property of the card, that status should be knowable at all times, per CR 707.6...
Comp Rules wrote:
707.6. If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-03 8:15 am 
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I put the links in the first page of this thread and sheldon clarified on the first comment on the second page. Papa funk also said in another thread that “A card can have an attribute that you are not currently aware of.”

Sources(again):
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17560
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18295
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18610&p=227551&hilit=+face+down+general#p227551
Quote:
For clarification's sake, you do not need to identify a face-down morph as your commander until it becomes relevant (like dealing commander damage). I suspect the jig might be up if you cast it from the command zone.
-Sheldon page 2 of this thread

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-03 1:29 pm 
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Those are not rules. Those are quotes from RC members, and while I respect that they administer the format, if this point were being debated in an actual game, "This guy on this forum said so" is not a particularly clear answer, is it? Reminds me of the original "wishes don't work" debacle, which ultimately led to the addition of an explicit rule regarding wishes.

Those links address some related issues, but not the one at hand - whether a face-down commander IN PLAY should be identified as such. Since the card's "commanderness" isn't "turned off" by being face-down, that seems like knowledge that should be public, unlike most other properties of a card, which are explicitly nullified by the face-down status (color, card type, name, etc.), and it is certainly relevant when on the battlefield.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-03 2:46 pm 
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RC tells wizards what the rules are, not the other way around. Pretty sure you played EDH just like the rest of us, using the rules that the RC laid out on the forums even without comprehensive rules backup. It's like the RC are the managers of the format and Wizards of the Coast are the lackeys. Sure you can talk to a lackey and usually get good information, but when you have a tough question you ask a manager. If a manager and lackey's answer don't jive, you obviously go with what the manager says.
Quote:
Those links address some related issues, but not the one at hand - whether a face-down commander IN PLAY should be identified as such.

Yeah, the links don't address it, but I figured I wouldn't have to make a direct link to a quote that was literally just said in the same exact thread. Which I also quoted so you wouldn't have to go back to even look it up... are you trollin'?

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-04 1:51 am 
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Bruticus wrote:
RC tells wizards what the rules are, not the other way around. Pretty sure you played EDH just like the rest of us, using the rules that the RC laid out on the forums even without comprehensive rules backup. It's like the RC are the managers of the format and Wizards of the Coast are the lackeys. Sure you can talk to a lackey and usually get good information, but when you have a tough question you ask a manager. If a manager and lackey's answer don't jive, you obviously go with what the manager says.

That's all well and good, and I don't disagree with it, but you're missing my point - THE RULES ON THIS SITE do not back up what you're claiming. And not to beat a dead horse, but the RC should not be administering the format by forum post. The rules of EDH are not the rules page on mtgcommander.com + whatever you can glean from thousands of posts by RC members within the forums. That is completely unacceptable. Firstly, it makes finding the answers a pain in the ass, and secondly, forum posts are not updated over time, meaning something Sheldon dropped a year or five years ago may or may not still be accurate. The rules are what is kept up to date on the rules page. Period. End of [bleeping] story, and those rules do not address this issue.
Bruticus wrote:
are you trollin'?

No I am not. I sincerely believe that forum posts are not the rules of the format, whether an RC member made them or not. Furthermore, I would like an explanation that justifies WHY "commanderness" would be hidden by morph, since it is an attribute of the CARD and not of the permanent named X. And IF the position of the RC is that it should, I would like to see that ON THE RULES PAGE and not have it be something you have to dig in a forum to find, for the reasons I have outlined above.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-04 3:49 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
The rules of EDH are not the rules page on mtgcommander.com + whatever you can glean from thousands of posts by RC members within the forums. That is completely unacceptable. Firstly, it makes finding the answers a pain in the ass, and secondly, forum posts are not updated over time, meaning something Sheldon dropped a year or five years ago may or may not still be accurate.


Case in point: I only learned in this thread that the 2011 post by Genomancer is apparently no longer relevant to the format. I'm not sure when or why that stopped being the case. I am not sure which parts of it do and don't apply today if anything. It was still being referenced in March 2018 in a different question about Commander-ness—Can one draw their commander to the command zone, and would that be a draw?—because it was the only thing from EDH RC members that really talked about face-down commanders moving zones.

Right now I still have no idea what is supposed to happen if Bomat Courier exiles my commander from my library, or what should really happen if I draw my commander from my library.

I personally really would like more clarity in the EDH rules about how to handle a face-down commander in various zones and what happens as it changes zone face-down.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-04 5:37 am 
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I think we are all in agreement that it would be nice to have these rules posted somewhere easier to find. I think the only reason they are not is because it's much more nitty-gritty and corner case than the RC would want to have on the official rules page. It might gum it up for the casual player just trying to learn the game? But I agree it would be nice.

Quote:
Right now I still have no idea what is supposed to happen if Bomat Courier exiles my commander from my library, or what should really happen if I draw my commander from my library.

Right now the rules would say that your commander is exiled face down, and stays there. The reason is because you had the opportunity to use the commander replacement once before, but decided to allow it to stay in your deck anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Different sleeve for commander when shuffled or not?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-05 1:05 pm 
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Bruticus wrote:
But I agree it would be nice.

What I'm saying is that it's beyond being nice - it is required in order to be considered a rule. I don't say this out of any disrespect for the RC, but I cannot consider a forum post to be any more than a suggestion - a possible way to handle something not well covered by the actual rules and nothing more.

EDIT: It hearkens back to this thread, when the "No Wishes" rule became a real rule and not just a forum post.

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