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 Post subject: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-18 12:44 pm 

Joined: 2019-Mar-18 10:17 am
Age: Hatchling
Sorry for yet another topic on this, but I simply must speak my mind about it. I didn't want to reply to other topics for fear of necro'ing them.

I always wanted for wish effects to work just for the unique nature of the effect. I don't care about sideboarding or anything related to that, but the fun of creating your own modal spell is unreplacable.

It would be great to have a wishboard be recognized as a "Collection of 10 unique cards in the color identity of your commander, that aren't duplicates of cards already in the deck.", and change the rule 13 to say "Effects referring to cards outside the game can refer only to cards in your wishboard"

Now, I've seen arguments calling people lazy or stupid for wanting to play with a wishboard, sounding more or less like "Git gud, the magic number 100 is paramount to this formats existence, cut some cards first if you want to use more cards." And it's honestly mindboggling. I thought the spirit of the format was to have fun and interesting interactions, not to enforce a rule with Azorious levels of zeal, that only applies to the topic if you look at it from one perspective. From another perspective, you still have 100 cards in your deck, and a weird, quirky modal spell that costs a lot, and you can break up it's costs into different turns.

Another popular opinion I've heard was that people would just fill the wishboard with silver bullets and specific hate. I fear that this could happen, but then again, I feel like people who would do that already missed the point of this format. There are cards that completly block other players, warp the game into a crawl, outright win or degenerately stax them to oblivion. How is a general mechanic of wishes worse than those?

Quoting Sheldon's Format Philosophy document
Quote:
A player who wishes to break the format will find many tools available to them, and taking those tools away means they move onto the next tool. Taking sufficient cards away from them to achieve a semblance of balance simply removes many, many cards from the pool that casual players enjoy and diminishes the games the format is intended for.

I strongly feel that the exclusion of wish effects diminishes my gaming experience. Not to the point of being unable to play, but each time I see a wish card, I get a feeling of powerless sadness at being unable to play it, similar to Inspiring commander from MTGA, or some reserved list cards (Really, how different is Timetwister to any red wheel or windfall, and yet, it's unreachable for many.)

Let's check the specific criteria on the Format philosophy document:
Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.
Besides the requirement to add that short rule about wishboards from the top of my post, I fail to see how wishes gain an unfair advantage from the structure of this format.

Creates Undesirable Game States.
Tutors are worse offenders here, and even they don't fully apply to this criteria.

Problematic Casual Omnipresence.
Wishes would probably be played, but certainly not more frequently than a Cyclonic Rift, Sol Ring or Necropotence. Again, regular tutors would still be more commonly played.

Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly.
Does not apply. Wishes add an overhead of mana cost to anything you get from them.

Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry.
Wishes probably wouldn't be universally played in each deck, and even if, they cost nowhere near as much as some cards like Cyclonic Rift, Mana Crypt, Oracle of Mul Daya etc.

Considering all of this, I feel like wishes should get a chance to shine, and create memorable moments for players, both when they think of those specific cards to include and when they resolve the spell. Inclusion of a wishboard not only makes deckbuilding more interesting, it also gives some space for rarely used effects to shine, diversifying the format. Sure, one could argue that this just means silver bullets, but there's a lot of cool and quirky spells that never make the cut, and they could very well get a chance to shine and make other players read them in bewilderment and amusement alike.

Just to finish, I'd like to include some posts I've come across that described their use in situations where other people agreed to play with them.
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=117227#p117227
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=115549#p115549
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=232162#p232162
And my personal list that I was fortunate to play when friends agreed:
Spin into myth
Smelt
Weave Fate
Essence Scatter
Negate
Redirect
Blink of an Eye
Fury storm
Incinerate
Mission Briefing


Thanks for hearing me out :) , and if you want to discuss this here, please assume a wishboard solely for wishes, no sideboards or using those after declaring commanders to swap cards or any of that. Just 10 cards for retrieval from outside the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-18 3:25 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Again? ALREADY?!?

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-18 3:50 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-18 11:59 am
Age: Elder Dragon
One of the most unique rules to this format is the exact number of 100 cards required to play. By allowing for wishes, you'll find that most decks will automatically start using them.

1) It's human nature to want to win, and quite honestly having access to 9 additional cards (we're considering the wish takes a slot) within our deck is too much to pass up. This creates a have and have not situation quite quickly. The wish cards, if allowed would create a Problematic Casual Omnipresence quite easily. They're quirky, they're fun, they have a low price point (presently) and not surprisingly they're very on color theme for their colors. The only one slightly off is R // D.

2) Limiting a card to 10 creates a weird play experience. You're taking a card that doesn't work presently, and imposing restrictions on it. Why 10? It's an arbitrary number. Does it need to be 10 per wish? Do you need a Living Wish board, and Death Wish Board, and a Research and Development Wish Board? Why should my deck with 4 wishes be any less powerful than your deck with one wish? It's bad enough that my mana base is so expensive because I'm playing 5 colors, but your wish shouldn't work better than my 11 wish deck JUST because you have less of them.

Le'ts say we give in to that nonsense, so then you have to explain to your friend that you have anywhere form 100 to 210 cards to play commander, but that only matters if you're running any of these 11 special cards. Speaking of which, there's a specific format errata for these 11 available cards. Here are your special sleaves to keep each set of 10 color coded for each of these 11 wish cards... you can see where that gets out of hand, perhaps?

3) Creating format errata on cards, even in broad strokes, begins a slippery slope. If we do that for wishes, then we should do that for other cards that work different in Commander. Such as the life matters cards. (Sorin Markov, Felidar Sovereign, Providence, Serra Ascendant).

4) We get it. You like wish cards, you've gotten someone in your play group to like or allow wish cards. You've managed to keep them fun for your group. This forum isn't for a single group though, it's for shaping a format and keeping it fun for everyone.

Case in point, I play in 4 playgroups.

I have one playgroup that likes the Partial Paris Mulligan still. This allows for degenerate combos, and occasionally when we see Combo Winter approaching we go back to the standard mulligan.


Another playgroup I'm a part of allows everyone begins with an emblem that allows them t look at the top card of their library on any other blue players turn, the reasoning being that most blue players in that group take forever to take their turn, and since we want to finish the game in a timely matter we let the other players try and plan their turn in advance.

My third play group has a LONG list of house bans. Cards that are just dumb, and oppressive, or cause arguments, etc.

The final play group that has 0 house rules and sticks to the rules on this website.
I know everyone of these play groups would have someone playing wish cards in as many decks as they could jam them in if that rule where to change. Going so far as to do wish loops.

With the allowance of house rules, I really feel that the only reason anyone posts questions like these is to change the competitive landscape or because they asked their "friends" for a house rule allowance and were told no.

Again, your mileage may vary but personally I'd have to say the verbiage, complication, and arbitrary decisions that would be necessary to allow the altering of the rules to include wishes doesn't provide enough of a positive play experience to warrant their inclusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-18 3:52 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-18 11:59 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I also find it pretty funny that your wishboard is 7/10 silver bullets for Cunning wish. Which pretty much makes you look like an idiot for even trying to suggest that people wouldn't do so. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-18 8:28 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Is there any reason you couldn't post in the other thread halfway down the page?


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-19 5:13 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
First off, to those that aren't OP, could we please at least try for civility? There's literally no reason for name-calling or anything remotely in the ballpark of it.

So, I typed out this enormous explanation of my thoughts, but it ended up being an enormous wall of text that hadn't even addressed half of what I want to say regarding wishes. For those who are masochistic enough to be interested in the full thing it's in the spoiler below, but I'll give a bullet-point tl;dr for everyone else:

- Wishes are bad at being modal cards unless the "modes" are all super cheap and narrow Red Elemental Blast-effects.
- Running cool and interesting effects in the wishboard is an inferior option to just running them in the deck, and takes away some of the magic of the deckbuilding process.
- The idea that wishes let you run more interesting effects is technically true but practically false

As for the actual arguments, I think the whole "silver bullet" discussion is kind of a red herring. While the problem of including a bunch of narrow hate cards is mildly important, the reasons why it even happens at all are much more relevant to the general problems of wishes. For starters, as moraff (rudely) pointed out, the wishboard you listed is far closer to a "silver bullet" list than an actual "cool cards that couldn't make the deck" list. In my most generous of moods I'd consider 4 of those cards to be cool underplayed effects, while my more nitpicky side would say that Fury Storm and maybe Mission Briefing are the only outliers and others are just boring efficient utility spells. Heck, I'd go far enough as to say that Negate and Essence Scatter (especially together on the same list!) are the epitome of silver bullets.

The mere fact of the matter is that as modal cards, most wishes are simply incredibly inefficient, to the point where I almost want to call them just plain bad. Most modal cards are a bunch of effects that alone would be 1 or 1.5 mana overcosted, for the benefit of being able to choose the most relevant one for the situation. The cheapest wishes are 2 mana and most of them are more, meaning the cost-versatility equation can get pretty skewed. This problem is then compounded by the fact that "cool underplayed effects" tend not to make the cut in most decks specifically because they themselves just don't contribute enough for their cost. This makes it so that the best way to use wishes is to get a bunch of undercosted-but-narrow effects.

If wishes were changed tomorrow, the only ones I think would actually ever see play seeking out interesting and underplayed cards would be Mastermind's Acquisition, Glittering Wish, and Living Wish. Living Wish and Glittering Wish are both cheap and have among the broadest and most interesting categories to search from, while Acquisition is at worst Diabolic Tutor.

But the most important point is this: why is the card you're wishing for not in the deck? If you want to play Fury Storm, why not just play it? You have 100 slots, roughly 60ish of which can fit spells, what's stopping you? The correct answer is always either other cards are better for the deck, or other cards are more interesting, or a combination of the two. And every time you make a deck, you will always have to weigh those two factors against each other. Do I want to run Anguished Unmaking and Counterspell or Ashen Rider and Draining Whelk? Do I want to run Nature's Claim or Cindervines? Brainstorm or Visions of Beyond?

These decisions are what makes deckbuilding interesting, and what makes running the cool cards actually worth anything. Part of what makes me love running things like Twisted Image or Grinding Station is the knowledge those deck slots could have been devoted to something "better" and that my decision to do that adds a sense of personality to the deck that wouldn't have been there if I just added another staple instead. It also makes each staple's inclusion more meaningful, as it shows that the deck was able to find clever work-arounds for say Sign in Blood but still wanted the sheer power of Reanimate.

Outside of some very specific corner cases, I ultimately see wishes as an attempt to get around ^ that process. Rather than taking the thought necessary to decide what those final cuts should be, the player just shoves them into the wishboard. Or at least that's what it looks like now, in a universe where we don't have a wishboard. Once a wishboard becomes an established thing, the exact same problem will rear its ugly head again, only this time affecting the wishboard. Those ten extra slots will succumb to the same problem as the 100 slots before them, where the opportunity cost of including cool card A will always be weighed against the opportunity cost of including cards B, C, D, E, and F. The big difference here is that cards going in the deck are the big kahunas, the cards you actually want to play, whereas the cards you put in the wishboard are just that cards that would be kinda nice to play.

And yet, we're still not out of the realms of problems, because over time wishes will succumb to the exact same problem as tutors always do. Sure, the Demonic Tutor in your deck can find literally any card to solve whatever problem you need, but as time goes on you'll find that the same 5 or so cards tend to be its primary targets. The same thing will always happen with the wishes. Even if you fill your wishboard with 10 super jank options, it's merely a fact that some of them are going to end up performing better than others given enough games. This will then circle around to the previous question, why are some of these cards not just in the deck? Heck, you could just drop the wish for either of them.


The one other point I will make is to say that everything I just mentioned ^ is based on the notion of a 10-card wishboard, which I think is effectively a non-starter anyway since it defeats the point of wishes in the first place. If I personally were to run wishes, I would want to do so in a system close to as written, where I can literally just pick any card I happen to have on me at the time, or even sometimes request that someone else lends me the card.

Anything less than that doesn't feel to invoke the true "flavor" of wishing and instead is just building a sideboard that you can sometimes use in-game. And while my idea is way too logistically annoying to tackle via the official rules, it is the epitome of what could work as a house rule. Wishes I think should be only usable on the extreme fringe of casual play, where fun is the only goal and everybody can trust everyone not to game the system. Stuff like that simply has no place in the official rules of a format.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-19 7:43 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
First off, to those that aren't OP, could we please at least try for civility? There's literally no reason for name-calling or anything remotely in the ballpark of it.

OP's post boils down to "I know we've discussed this recently but didn't come to the conclusion I wanted it to come to, so I'm going to start the whole conversation up again with no new suggestions, just to see if it goes anywhere different". It's the internet equivalent of asking Daddy because Mommy said no. So, no, I don't see why civility is needed, especially when the last of these conversations is literally still on the first page of the relevant section.

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-19 9:45 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
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Viperion wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
First off, to those that aren't OP, could we please at least try for civility? There's literally no reason for name-calling or anything remotely in the ballpark of it.

OP's post boils down to "I know we've discussed this recently but didn't come to the conclusion I wanted it to come to, so I'm going to start the whole conversation up again with no new suggestions, just to see if it goes anywhere different". It's the internet equivalent of asking Daddy because Mommy said no. So, no, I don't see why civility is needed, especially when the last of these conversations is literally still on the first page of the relevant section.

Treating people with respect takes little effort and is a lot better than us being jackasses to each other.

This is one of the better written requests for wishes I've seen, and while I don't imagine it's likely to budge the RC, we can at least not be assholes and do things like call them an idiot.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-19 11:15 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
Viperion wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
First off, to those that aren't OP, could we please at least try for civility? There's literally no reason for name-calling or anything remotely in the ballpark of it.

OP's post boils down to "I know we've discussed this recently but didn't come to the conclusion I wanted it to come to, so I'm going to start the whole conversation up again with no new suggestions, just to see if it goes anywhere different". It's the internet equivalent of asking Daddy because Mommy said no. So, no, I don't see why civility is needed, especially when the last of these conversations is literally still on the first page of the relevant section.

Treating people with respect takes little effort and is a lot better than us being jackasses to each other.

This is one of the better written requests for wishes I've seen, and while I don't imagine it's likely to budge the RC, we can at least not be assholes and do things like call them an idiot.


QFT! I too would like Wishes to work, but I know that they just are not likely to do so on a large scale. I have not played EDH in close to 3 months, but when I played more regularly I would welcome wishboards/Un-cards etc. If someone abuses it, that is one thing but let people have fun. Far too often I have very little free time, so if I went to a store and I was not able to play this really fun whatever because someone was a jerk I would be pretty unhappy.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-19 11:31 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
we can at least not be assholes and do things like call them an idiot.

/citation needed. I have done no such thing.

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-19 11:39 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
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Viperion wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
we can at least not be assholes and do things like call them an idiot.

/citation needed. I have done no such thing.

You weren't the one calling someone an idiot, no, someone else did that.

Let's just be cool with the guy using the EDH rules forum to discuss its rules.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-19 12:30 pm 
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I called them an idiot, and while it was rude and borderline inappropriate I am at a loss for a better term that describes someone who would make a new thread for a topic that was beaten to death and back just over a month ago and within that new thread contradict their reasoning for doing so with their provided example of what they were wanting.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-19 2:03 pm 
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Location: New Hampshire
Wishes aren't actually BANNED, so I'm not sure the banning criteria are really the thing to discuss, but I suppose we can frame the discussion that way;

manioo8 wrote:
Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.
Besides the requirement to add that short rule about wishboards from the top of my post, I fail to see how wishes gain an unfair advantage from the structure of this format.

"Interacts Poorly" does not necessarily mean "Gives Unfair Advantage". And if you want to have a hard limit of 100 cards, a category of card that flagrantly ignores that limit would certainly "interact poorly" IMO. Just like if you somehow had a group of cards that let you flagrantly ignore the Color ID rules in some way... those clearly wouldn't be allowed because they are antithetical to the design of the format.

manioo8 wrote:
Creates Undesirable Game States.
Tutors are worse offenders here, and even they don't fully apply to this criteria.

Again, not necessarily. For some - not all - players, wishes would equate to a selection of narrow hosers - cards that are too situational to maindeck but hidiously powerful in certain games. In other words, the text of the card would effectively become "Ruin the game for target player".

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-20 12:15 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
moraff wrote:
I called them an idiot, and while it was rude and borderline inappropriate I am at a loss for a better term that describes someone who would make a new thread for a topic that was beaten to death and back just over a month ago and within that new thread contradict their reasoning for doing so with their provided example of what they were wanting.


Reality is someone would have gotten upset because he "Necro'ed" a dead thread... No matter what he did it would have offended someone that doesn't like wishes and puppies and world peace.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-20 9:48 am 
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Inkeyes22 wrote:
Far too often I have very little free time, so if I went to a store and I was not able to play this really fun whatever because someone was a jerk I would be pretty unhappy.


This is the whole point of having an official set of rules, to avoid wasting time debating about wishboards and un-cards outside of established playgroups who have already agreed on house rules. If you only have a limited amount of time, the official rules are your friend, as they maximize your valuable play time...

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
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