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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-20 11:48 pm 
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Let's keep things civil here, please.

Also, if someone necros a thread that you don't like, maybe not participating in that thread is the right choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-22 12:24 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-18 10:17 am
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Hey. I hid my responses in spoilers to prevent the over-quoting from taking up too much space, for your viewing pleasure :)

Quote:
One of the most unique rules to this format is the exact number of 100 cards required to play. By allowing for wishes, you'll find that most decks will automatically start using them.

Perhaps they'll start using them, but that's a good thing! Cards are meant to be played after all. Also, the 100 card pool seems arbitrary, but we'll get to that in a bit.
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1) It's human nature to want to win, and quite honestly having access to 9 additional cards (we're considering the wish takes a slot) within our deck is too much to pass up. This creates a have and have not situation quite quickly. The wish cards, if allowed would create a Problematic Casual Omnipresence quite easily. They're quirky, they're fun, they have a low price point (presently) and not surprisingly they're very on color theme for their colors. The only one slightly off is R // D.

Do keep in mind that the "additional cards in the deck" as you like to view them are all, for the purposes of casting them, overcosted (by around 2-4 mana, some of it colored, depending on the wish). This already distinguishes them from actually being in the 100 for me. Also there's the fact that you can't draw them and have to go through the wish cast to get them. You still have to build the main deck the pre-wish way if playing with them, and can't rely on those 10 wishcards all that much.
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2) Limiting a card to 10 creates a weird play experience. You're taking a card that doesn't work presently, and imposing restrictions on it. Why 10? It's an arbitrary number. Does it need to be 10 per wish? Do you need a Living Wish board, and Death Wish Board, and a Research and Development Wish Board? Why should my deck with 4 wishes be any less powerful than your deck with one wish? It's bad enough that my mana base is so expensive because I'm playing 5 colors, but your wish shouldn't work better than my 11 wish deck JUST because you have less of them.

Le'ts say we give in to that nonsense, (...)
It's worth remembering that rule 13 is in itself a restriction imposed on otherwise legal cards, which work in any other format as you would imagine them working. You say that 10 is an arbitrary number, but do keep in mind that 100 cards per deck is as arbitrary as 10 cards per wishboard. I also specified the assumption of one wishboard per deck. Let's explore that option please, instead of inventing "nonsense" as you call it, and then defeat that nonsense, effectively making and defeating a strawman.
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3) Creating format errata on cards, even in broad strokes, begins a slippery slope. If we do that for wishes, then we should do that for other cards that work different in Commander. Such as the life matters cards.
The rule 13 is the beginning of that slope. It is a unique rule that is a format errata only affecting wish effects. If you are gainst format errata, why are you not against rule 13 which epitomizes that behaviour?
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4) We get it. You like wish cards, you've gotten someone in your play group to like or allow wish cards. You've managed to keep them fun for your group. This forum isn't for a single group though, it's for shaping a format and keeping it fun for everyone.

Case in point, I play in 4 playgroups (...)

I realize that this forum is not for single playgroups, but where else does a general rule begin, than with experiences of players that play the game itself? I'm not saying that my experiences are the deciding factor. Just wanted to provide an example, as usually discussions are pretty devoid of them :)
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With the allowance of house rules, I really feel that the only reason anyone posts questions like these is to change the competitive landscape or because they asked their "friends" for a house rule allowance and were told no.

Again, your mileage may vary but personally I'd have to say the verbiage, complication, and arbitrary decisions that would be necessary to allow the altering of the rules to include wishes doesn't provide enough of a positive play experience to warrant their inclusion.

The competitive landscape is too fast and cutthroat to turn to wishes. I own both a T1 Teferi deck, and a Random jank sphinx tribal. I'd never run cunning wish in teferi for example, because it defeats the purpose of playing optimal, low cost effects with that 3 man overhead of a wish. In a random jank sphinx tribal though, getting 10 flavorful and powerful effects in there would be fun, and ensure that I don't actually run them in the main 100, decreasing their overall rate of appearance. (what is more casual? Having a negate in the main deck and using it often, or locked behind a wish, so it effectively costs 5 and mostly disables your use of the other 9 cards?)
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I also find it pretty funny that your wishboard is 7/10 silver bullets for Cunning wish. Which pretty much makes you look like an idiot for even trying to suggest that people wouldn't do so. :roll:

I'm curious what cards in that wishboard are considered a silver bullet. For me it always seemed like cards like Boil would be considered a silver bullet, not a counterspell, even if unconditional. Is Smelt a silver bullet? Is Redirect a silver bullet against all targeting spells? I was quite baffled at the notion that that wishboard is mostly silver bullets. Is Cryptic command a silver bullet against a beatdown deck, because of its third mode?

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Is there any reason you couldn't post in the other thread halfway down the page?

I didn't want to necro the thread, as I said earlier. I'm not familiar with the specific rules of this forum, and I didn't want to cause any more trouble than necessary to convey my thoughts.

Hey, thanks for the detailed reply. I read all of it, and really appreciate the time you put into it :)

Regarding your points:
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As for the actual arguments, I think the whole "silver bullet" discussion is kind of a red herring. While the problem of including a bunch of narrow hate cards is mildly important, the reasons why it even happens at all are much more relevant to the general problems of wishes. For starters, as moraff (rudely) pointed out, the wishboard you listed is far closer to a "silver bullet" list than an actual "cool cards that couldn't make the deck" list. In my most generous of moods I'd consider 4 of those cards to be cool underplayed effects, while my more nitpicky side would say that Fury Storm and maybe Mission Briefing are the only outliers and others are just boring efficient utility spells. Heck, I'd go far enough as to say that Negate and Essence Scatter (especially together on the same list!) are the epitome of silver bullets.

It's important to note that having those two counterspells in the wishboard ensures that they are not found in the main deck. I always thought that a silver bullet is a card that hoses a certain strategy. You could argue that a counterspell hoses strategies that use spells, but I felt that dedicating two slots to those two would be more fun than have a mana drain in there, and would be a kind of "aha, see what you did there" for my opponents. I don't hide the fact that it provides a function of countering any spell, but every deck needs some kind of "boring utility". Maybe the wishboard I posted suggests a stronger deck than it really is. I should've posted the decklist along with it.
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The mere fact of the matter is that as modal cards, most wishes are simply incredibly inefficient, to the point where I almost want to call them just plain bad. Most modal cards are a bunch of effects that alone would be 1 or 1.5 mana overcosted, for the benefit of being able to choose the most relevant one for the situation. The cheapest wishes are 2 mana and most of them are more, meaning the cost-versatility equation can get pretty skewed. This problem is then compounded by the fact that "cool underplayed effects" tend not to make the cut in most decks specifically because they themselves just don't contribute enough for their cost. This makes it so that the best way to use wishes is to get a bunch of undercosted-but-narrow effects.

It's true, but then again, having 10 cards makes it a lot easier to sneak some fun effects into the wishboard that wouldn't otherwise see the light of day anywhere. Have you seen anyone play spin into myth or redirect in their maindeck? What is the last time you remember it resolving? I admit, my wishboard isn't ripe with cards that I'm advocating for, but there's another guy that I play with, that runs tefer's response, glorious end, quicken and macabre mockery among other things. He started running the two opposite counterspells in his wishboard after seeing my idea though, so feel free to use it as an argument against wishes.
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If wishes were changed tomorrow, the only ones I think would actually ever see play seeking out interesting and underplayed cards would be Mastermind's Acquisition, Glittering Wish, and Living Wish. Living Wish and Glittering Wish are both cheap and have among the broadest and most interesting categories to search from, while Acquisition is at worst Diabolic Tutor.

I'm sure that wishes would be played with different frequency, but that's just the nature of stronger vs weaker effects that is found everywhere in this game.
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But the most important point is this: why is the card you're wishing for not in the deck? If you want to play Fury Storm, why not just play it? You have 100 slots, roughly 60ish of which can fit spells, what's stopping you? The correct answer is always either other cards are better for the deck, or other cards are more interesting, or a combination of the two. And every time you make a deck, you will always have to weigh those two factors against each other. Do I want to run Anguished Unmaking and Counterspell or Ashen Rider and Draining Whelk? Do I want to run Nature's Claim or Cindervines? Brainstorm or Visions of Beyond?

These decisions are what makes deckbuilding interesting, and what makes running the cool cards actually worth anything. Part of what makes me love running things like Twisted Image or Grinding Station is the knowledge those deck slots could have been devoted to something "better" and that my decision to do that adds a sense of personality to the deck that wouldn't have been there if I just added another staple instead. It also makes each staple's inclusion more meaningful, as it shows that the deck was able to find clever work-arounds for say Sign in Blood but still wanted the sheer power of Reanimate.

I agree about the fact that cards you chose are meaningful to you, but so are the cards you choose for your wishboard. Those additional 10 cards don't diminish the overall deckbuilding experience, and selecting those 10 is actually a different process, because you are limited by the conditions of a wish (instant/sorcery/eldrazi) most of the time, and by the timing of those cards' use. You would consider the 10 from a wishboard differently from a 100 of a deck, and in my opinion it adds to the deckbuilding experience, rather than take away from it.
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Outside of some very specific corner cases, I ultimately see wishes as an attempt to get around ^ that process. Rather than taking the thought necessary to decide what those final cuts should be, the player just shoves them into the wishboard. Or at least that's what it looks like now, in a universe where we don't have a wishboard. Once a wishboard becomes an established thing, the exact same problem will rear its ugly head again, only this time affecting the wishboard. Those ten extra slots will succumb to the same problem as the 100 slots before them, where the opportunity cost of including cool card A will always be weighed against the opportunity cost of including cards B, C, D, E, and F. The big difference here is that cards going in the deck are the big kahunas, the cards you actually want to play, whereas the cards you put in the wishboard are just that cards that would be kinda nice to play.

So you're saying that wishes would not really change the people's nature, and they would continue to do what they do already? In essence, wishes wouldn't affect the problem that you described in a meaningful way. I fail to see why including them would be problematic in this instance.
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And yet, we're still not out of the realms of problems, because over time wishes will succumb to the exact same problem as tutors always do. Sure, the Demonic Tutor in your deck can find literally any card to solve whatever problem you need, but as time goes on you'll find that the same 5 or so cards tend to be its primary targets. The same thing will always happen with the wishes. Even if you fill your wishboard with 10 super jank options, it's merely a fact that some of them are going to end up performing better than others given enough games. This will then circle around to the previous question, why are some of these cards not just in the deck? Heck, you could just drop the wish for either of them.

Dropping the wish would work if ony 1/10 of your wishboard was ever picked. the fact that a wish is mostly inefficient means that you're gonna want to fill it with different utility options more often that the most often used cards. In essence, I feel like the wide utility and high cost of wishes would somewhat prevent this effect from fully taking hold of a wishboard. I concur that it would happen to some extent, but not to the one that is known from actual tutors. And coincidentally, this effect you describe leaves a few spaces for more janky options that players would more often include, precisely because they don't feel as though they're "losing" a slot. That'd enable some fun cards to slip through from unplayable status even for the more spiky, optimizing players.
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The one other point I will make is to say that everything I just mentioned ^ is based on the notion of a 10-card wishboard, which I think is effectively a non-starter anyway since it defeats the point of wishes in the first place. If I personally were to run wishes, I would want to do so in a system close to as written, where I can literally just pick any card I happen to have on me at the time, or even sometimes request that someone else lends me the card.

Anything less than that doesn't feel to invoke the true "flavor" of wishing and instead is just building a sideboard that you can sometimes use in-game. And while my idea is way too logistically annoying to tackle via the official rules, it is the epitome of what could work as a house rule. Wishes I think should be only usable on the extreme fringe of casual play, where fun is the only goal and everybody can trust everyone not to game the system. Stuff like that simply has no place in the official rules of a format.

I kinda agree, but also feel like the true unlimited choice of a card you own would never be approved by the Rules Committee, so I'm arguing for the next best thing. I'd love to see a separate topic for the discussion of wishes, if they weren't limited by amount at all, only by not appearing in the main deck and card color identity. I don't want to fracture this discussion any more than necessary though, so let's stick to the 10 card wishboard.

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OP's post boils down to "I know we've discussed this recently but didn't come to the conclusion I wanted it to come to, so I'm going to start the whole conversation up again with no new suggestions, just to see if it goes anywhere different". It's the internet equivalent of asking Daddy because Mommy said no. So, no, I don't see why civility is needed, especially when the last of these conversations is literally still on the first page of the relevant section.

Civility is never needed, but nice to have. Don't we all ultimatly are here to have fun with the game? No need to make this forum a toxic environment. We should set the example to other players, no? I wanted to discuss this issue, and give some examples, and actually refer to the card banning guidelines, as I haven't seen those arguments brought up before, or in this kind of way.

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"Interacts Poorly" does not necessarily mean "Gives Unfair Advantage". And if you want to have a hard limit of 100 cards, a category of card that flagrantly ignores that limit would certainly "interact poorly" IMO. Just like if you somehow had a group of cards that let you flagrantly ignore the Color ID rules in some way... those clearly wouldn't be allowed because they are antithetical to the design of the format.

But out of all the limits of deck construction, the limit of 100 cards, I'd argue, is the most arbitrary. Whereas color identity is tied to flavor and limiting deck mechanics only to the chosen commander's colors, the number 100 is only a remant of an old game, highlander, from what I've heard. The rule about no duplicates is also more important, since it promotes more variance and lets games have more interesting effects. I would call the difference between a 100 and a 110 card deck negligible, and a difference between a 100 deck and a 100 deck with maybe sometimes one of the 10 other cards something a lot less than negligible. I can't find the word for it though :)
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Again, not necessarily. For some - not all - players, wishes would equate to a selection of narrow hosers - cards that are too situational to maindeck but hidiously powerful in certain games. In other words, the text of the card would effectively become "Ruin the game for target player".

The Rules Committee shouldn't evaluate the cards solely on their potential to do bad things. Perhaps certain players would do what you describe, but those players already missed the point of the game. Why limit yourself from something that has the potential to do bad, when you're missing so much good in the process? It's as if you had said that people shouldn't go outside, because somebody could rob you at gunpoint. While true, isn't it missing a lot of other things that could happen outside?

Sorry if this came out too long or something. I wanted to be thorough and give examples to make my points as clear as possible. And sorry for the typos.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-22 1:52 am 

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I want to have a wishboard, I want to have red elemental blast and pyroblastin my wishboard just in case.

I think a wishboard is fun, usefull and not unfair and if my vote copunts for something Ill vote in favor

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-22 9:47 am 
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alexev wrote:
if my vote copunts for something Ill vote in favor

It doesn't, but neither does mine. We're all kinda on even ground in that regard.

manioo8 wrote:
You say that 10 is an arbitrary number, but do keep in mind that 100 cards per deck is as arbitrary as 10 cards per wishboard.

If I recall correctly, although I don't want to speak out of turn, but I believe Sheldon has mentioned that they tried different deck sizes before settling fully on 100. More or less that they wanted the number as large as it could be while still shuffle-able without assistance (for the average player). You may still feel differently, but I don't think the number is as arbitrary, defunct, or antiquated as you're making it out to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-23 5:20 am 
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manioo8 wrote:
But out of all the limits of deck construction, the limit of 100 cards, I'd argue, is the most arbitrary.

Whether the chosen limit is arbitrary or not does not invalidate the fact that having access to an additional selection of cards is a powerful advantage. Therefore, allowing wishboards instantly makes every deck NOT running wishes worse. Arguing about the specific number of cards allowed in the deck and the specific number allowed in a wishboard misses the point. The point is that the limit EXISTS, and by running wishes you ignore it.

manioo8 wrote:
The Rules Committee shouldn't evaluate the cards solely on their potential to do bad things.

No, but it definitely needs to be considered. It is equally irresponsible to evaluate solely on the good things. What really matters is what the trend will be. What the majority of players would do with the option. And frankly I don't trust the majority of players not to abuse things.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-23 6:33 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
No, but it definitely needs to be considered. It is equally irresponsible to evaluate solely on the good things. What really matters is what the trend will be. What the majority of players would do with the option. And frankly I don't trust the majority of players not to abuse things.


I will happily admit that if I were given the opportunity to have a wishboard, I'd make sure people regretted it rather than use it to run janky niche nonsense that allegedly adds to everyone's experience. Or maybe just ten copies of Goblin Game, because since we're already tossing the 100 card restriction out the the window, why not?

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-24 10:22 am 
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manioo8 wrote:
It's important to note that having those two counterspells in the wishboard ensures that they are not found in the main deck. I always thought that a silver bullet is a card that hoses a certain strategy.

Most of the time yes, although I'm using it in a more general sense to refer to cards whose usefulness is dependent on the opponent's cards. Comparing Negate to Cancel for example, the effect is equally powerful but one doesn't function unless your opponent meets a certain condition, in exchange for a lower mana cost.

manioo8 wrote:
every deck needs some kind of "boring utility".

I don't disagree, but my overall point is that those cards belong in the main deck.

manioo8 wrote:
Have you seen anyone play spin into myth or redirect in their maindeck? What is the last time you remember it resolving? I admit, my wishboard isn't ripe with cards that I'm advocating for, but there's another guy that I play with, that runs teferi's response, glorious end, quicken and macabre mockery among other things.
On a side note, I actually do run Glorious End and Quicken, and Macabre Mockery is a card I've had my eye on for quite a few decks.

But, to the actually important point, my question before remains. What is stopping either of you from running those in the main deck? We both know the answer, and it's the same reasons why neither of you run (insert card here) in either your main deck or your wishboard.

marioo8 wrote:
So you're saying that wishes would not really change the people's nature, and they would continue to do what they do already? In essence, wishes wouldn't affect the problem that you described in a meaningful way. I fail to see why including them would be problematic in this instance.

I'm not convinced that wishes would be a problem (at least in this regard), but I do think that in terms of allowing decks to run more interesting cards it's at best a lateral move.

marioo8 wrote:
And coincidentally, this effect you describe leaves a few spaces for more janky options that players would more often include, precisely because they don't feel as though they're "losing" a slot. That'd enable some fun cards to slip through from unplayable status even for the more spiky, optimizing players.

Either we have differing ideas of what counts as "janky", or this is a bit of a bait-and-switch. What's the point of including a card if it'll never get played? Yay, I have these 5-7 cards in my wishboard, even though I won't ever use them. Dead space with the name Gather Specimens or Star of Extinction is still dead space. The simplest way to fill up that dead space is to find cards that are on-the-whole worse than the prime targets, but manage to be the best possible card for rather specific circumstances. Which is almost precisely the definition of a silver bullet.

At least when a card is in the normal deck you'll still draw it from time to time. And if it turns out that you actually did make a mistake and include a card that isn't right for the deck, it'll become a lot more apparent after your reaction to it showing up is continuously "I wish this was something else." Bad* cards in the deck stick out like a sore thumb during gameplay, bad cards in the wishboard take a lot more effort to detect and remove.

(*under any possible meaning of "bad". To include: weak, boring, narrow, overpowered, unenjoyable, cheap-shot, I'm-sick-of-seeing-it, etc)

marioo8 wrote:
I feel like the true unlimited choice of a card you own would never be approved by the Rules Committee, so I'm arguing for the next best thing.
And that's why I said it should be a rule that is only handled by the house. I don't think there's any real benefit to the format in allowing wishes, there's a greater-than-zero possibility for quite a few problems (as other posters have described better than I), and the entire point of running wishes is IMO not achievable by a top-down uniformed rules system anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-24 6:44 pm 

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manioo8 wrote:
I wanted to be thorough and give examples to make my points as clear as possible.
Your posts have been through, but no new ground has been uncovered. This has been something talked about for years.

If you can't convince the people you play with, they don't want to do it. Respect that choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-25 3:18 am 
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Wishboards are just an expansion pack, and those just require additions to the social contract. Not all playgroups can handle group curating; so by default- Wishes or wish modes don't do anything. It's like Planeswalker Deathmatch, it's a subgame of EDH where all parties prepare together. It doesn't make Highlander better or worse, but those sort of gameplay mods specifically require mutual preparation, and clear. concise. communication.

The vanilla rules are made and handled to have dozens of subgames (Archenemy, Planechase, Planechase-Archenemy, Star, Emperor, Two-Headed Elder Dragon, any flavor of the 3v1 rulesets that aren't as much of an advantage for 1 as scheme cards-) and what I'll describe as "expansion packs" (subgames, and rule substitutions-) are community built, but should themselves be self-aware in practice. I think Planechase EDH with "Destination Planes" (the Planesdeck is dealt out between players, and they can skip their turnly die roll -but not their dies from paying mana in commander tax size incraments- to "lock in" the next plane for their walk roll from the pool they were dealt) is my favorite way to play. It adds the right type of variance- and removing a few key planes from the pool tends to make that variance more forgiving- unless we really want to have a Lich's Tomb kindof gamenight. Wishboards are this sortof expansion pack- and a very necessary part of them is curating Wishboards as they appear- and discouraging persistent use among several decks. Curating requires wishboards to remain in theme with the EDH deck they're strapped to, and handles other agreed-upon rules.

That level of social contract being difficult to achieve is not, however a reason to alter the baseline rules- since those baseline rules are intended to reinforce a standard of enjoyment while played Magic fixated on scaled up resources and group dynamic (to a degree that often involves some level of anti-competition for the sake of fairness.)

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-26 2:51 pm 
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Putting my response to the response in a spoiler tag, as it's rather lengthy. No name calling this time, I've had plenty of sleep and am far less grumpy than I was.

Quote:
Perhaps they'll start using them, but that's a good thing! Cards are meant to be played after all. Also, the 100 card pool seems arbitrary, but we'll get to that in a bit.


Actually, as the format is built on the initial format of 100 card highlander, the 100 is not arbitrary since this format was originally named Elder Dragon Highlander. Which is why sites like EDHREC exists instead of MTGCommanderREC. But alrighty.

Quote:
Do keep in mind that the "additional cards in the deck" as you like to view them are all, for the purposes of casting them, overcosted (by around 2-4 mana, some of it colored, depending on the wish). This already distinguishes them from actually being in the 100 for me. Also there's the fact that you can't draw them and have to go through the wish cast to get them. You still have to build the main deck the pre-wish way if playing with them, and can't rely on those 10 wishcards all that much.


The same thing can be said for the 92+ cards in your deck after you initially resolve mulligans. And, anything you believe that circumvents that fact also gets the wish card to your hand as fast as those other 92+ cards.

Quote:
It's worth remembering that rule 13 is in itself a restriction imposed on otherwise legal cards, which work in any other format as you would imagine them working.


Actually, you're not entirely correct there. The reason why rule 13 exists is due to the fact that in every other official tournament format, (keep in mind, that formats were originally defined by the Duelists' Convocation International, not Wizards) the wish cards only refer to the optional 15 card sideboard, and Commander does not have such a sideboard. It used to be recommended to have a pre-board moment, but no longer. In 60 card land you're not required to have a 15 card sideboard, and if you were to show up with wishes and no sideboard, the wish card would not function as printed. In fact, at a limited event, if you draft a wish card, those cards only function with the cards remaining in your card pool. The only recognized difference to those rules was during the pre-release for Unstable, where several level 3 and 4 judges ruled at the Grand Prix pre-release venue that any card you had in tow would function with Spike, Tournament Grinder, though some of us at that tournament were almost convinced that was just to drive up sales on cards that had been previously banned.


Quote:
You say that 10 is an arbitrary number, but do keep in mind that 100 cards per deck is as arbitrary as 10 cards per wishboard. I also specified the assumption of one wishboard per deck. Let's explore that option please, instead of inventing "nonsense" as you call it, and then defeat that nonsense, effectively making and defeating a strawman.


Somewhat agreed, but the assumption is if we're changing how the official commander tournament format works (Wishing without sideboards) then I feel that it should allow all such cards to function on equal footing. Otherwise you're providing an unbalanced advantage towards decks that run less colors than the others.


Also, as mentioned earlier 100 isn't arbitrary. It's a carry over from another format that decided 100 cards was a nice round number for Highlander, large enough to provide variance, small enough to be able to shuffle cleanly, and makes a lot of the math for deck building from 60 to 100 easy to carry over as well.

Quote:
The rule 13 is the beginning of that slope. It is a unique rule that is a format errata only affecting wish effects. If you are gainst format errata, why are you not against rule 13 which epitomizes that behaviour?


To clarify something that was mentioned earlier, as the wishes require a sideboard to function in most official formats (which are mostly Bo3) when the pre-board was removed from Commander as it seemed to be used primarily as a way to hate out commanders and to wish out of, rule 13 was put in place to clarify how those cards would work. The format is an official format, not a casual one.


Quote:
I realize that this forum is not for single playgroups, but where else does a general rule begin, than with experiences of players that play the game itself? I'm not saying that my experiences are the deciding factor. Just wanted to provide an example, as usually discussions are pretty devoid of them :)


A fair point, but as several of the people here have pointed out, there's not been any new ground covered in this discussion, nothing to sway either side one way or the other in this case.


Quote:
The competitive landscape is too fast and cutthroat to turn to wishes. I own both a T1 Teferi deck, and a Random jank sphinx tribal. I'd never run cunning wish in teferi for example, because it defeats the purpose of playing optimal, low cost effects with that 3 man overhead of a wish. In a random jank sphinx tribal though, getting 10 flavorful and powerful effects in there would be fun, and ensure that I don't actually run them in the main 100, decreasing their overall rate of appearance. (what is more casual? Having a negate in the main deck and using it often, or locked behind a wish, so it effectively costs 5 and mostly disables your use of the other 9 cards?)


T1 Mono U Teferri Wishboard, thought of in about 10 minutes, with some thought to the local meta -

Pact of Negation
Blue Elemental Blast
Flusterstorm
Clockspinning
Pongify
Stifle
Brain Freeze
Hurkyl's Recall
Trickbind
Echoing Truth

This should handle most of the T1 decks out there, and is a defensive wishboard. If we were going to go offensive, we would actually prefer to be running something like Murmaider / Food Chain / Jeleva / Zur or Yidris, and possibly be outclassed by Doomsday depending on the board state. Though the ability to gain anything is pretty spicy.

It should be noted that the defensive wishboard only requires 5 mana at most in order to do so. There's even some duplication across 1 and 2 mana in case you have a savvy player who uses T1 sol ring Chalice for 1. This only pulls Flusterstorm and Pact, from the usual stax list into the wishboard, and that's mainly a meta choice as Storm isn't played as often where I'm at. It's also important to note that Competitive game play is SUPER misrepresented as a turn 3/4 format and usually hits turn 6/7 more often, and largely comes down to turn 3/4 being the turning point. In a Staxferri build you should have PLENTY of mana on turn 3/4 to defensively wish.

Though your mileage may vary.

Quote:
I'm curious what cards in that wishboard are considered a silver bullet. For me it always seemed like cards like Boil would be considered a silver bullet, not a counterspell, even if unconditional. Is Smelt a silver bullet? Is Redirect a silver bullet against all targeting spells? I was quite baffled at the notion that that wishboard is mostly silver bullets. Is Cryptic command a silver bullet against a beatdown deck, because of its third mode?


Let's quickly glance at your your wishboard, for how this becomes silver bullet. Again, these are all instants so clearly this is for Cunning Wish.

Your wishboard has answers for creatures, artifacts, enchantments, regeneration, game winning spells, protection for your important stuff dying, the ability to recast something from your graveyard, as well as the ability to copy most of your spells somewhere in the ballpark of 5-6 times, as we presume you'll often times be nuking Nin for the card draw to recast Nin to ramp up the Fury Storm.

If you have Cunning Wish in hand by the time you have 8 mana, there is very little an opponent could do with a single card to cause you a problem.

That makes it a silver bullet.
Who wouldn't want a spell that says:

Quote:
UUUURRRR Instant -
Choose one -
o Destroy target artifact. Add 5 mana.
o Counter target spell. Add 5 mana.
o Put target creature on it's owners library then fateseal 2.
o Choose new targets for a spell with a single target. Add 5 mana.
o Return target non-land permanent to it's owners hand, draw 1 card, add 1 mana.
o Deal 3 damage to a creature, it cannot be regenerated this turn. Add 5 mana.
o Surveil 2, an instant or sorcery in your graveyard gains flashback. Add 5 mana.
o Copy X target instant or sorcery spells where X is 1 plus the number of times you've cast your commander. Add 1 mana.


And that's just your board. Can you imagine a tuned living wish board? Creature or land "restriction" would possibly shift the cEDH meta from splash blue to splash green.


tl;dr
Use the social contract if you want to wish, as wishes do no thing to better the format, make it more accessible. Furthermore, just by asking in several of my playrgroups it has been determined that most wishboards will contain nothing but answers or game finishers, which offers very little in the improvement of the gameplay experience for players not casting the wish spell.

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 Post subject: Necro for personal satisfaction? Now I understand Lilliana.
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-30 10:35 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
I own four copies of Death Wish, though Mastermind's Acquisition is better. I never could think of a deck that wanted to run wishes for, so I never pushed for house ruling wishboards/wishing in. The only thing I can think of that I would still want to try it Spawnsire of Ulamog.

When my playgroup was discussing the "deck size" conundrum we decided that a decksize 100+ wasn't desirable because it was basically an excuse for people to get sloppy (we let a few players do it for a while, but they stopped once they got a grasp on "deck consistency"). We ended up houseruling that a player could shuffle together multiple commander decks, including having multiple commanders, but we never actually played with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-14 10:31 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Wishes are not allowed in commander because they would break two of the banlist criteria.

They interact poorly with the format because they functionally increase you deck size above 100 cards. Part of the deck building challenge is to build a 100 card singleton deck and wishes allow you to both go beyond that 100 cards as well as being another tutor. Normal tutors are a source of ire for some players due to them being effective ways to circumvent the singleton rule, and so a tutor that also break the 100 card rule is going to be worse.

They also would be utterly ubiquitous, with cunning wish the biggest offender. Where is no deck that wouldn't be better by a significant margin by running the wishes, as they become the best modal spells possible.

Their inclusion may provide a few people with some fun things to do, but the mostly all they will do is make decks more consistent and better able to access targeted hate. You wont have to weaken your deck to be able to run GY hate or enchantment hate because that just goes in the sideboard to be wished when needed.

There is some positives to them, but I believe they would be overshadowed by the negatives.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-15 8:44 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
My local competitive weekly has allowed 15 card wishoards for the last month.

So far, no one is using them except me, and i only use Living Wish.

My experience so far is that it's just not that good, but i am playing competitive and it's 15 cards.

I was thinking of posting to ask for suggestions actually.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-15 10:05 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
That's an interesting anecdote, The fact that people in a competitive meta dont use them is interesting. I wonder why, especially for blue decks, why are they not using cunning wish? Perhaps you could ask your group what they think about it.

Perhaps they are not aware that, depending on colours, you can have a modal spell that gets you a counter, removal of any flavor, graveyard hate and card draw.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-May-15 10:23 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm sure if they're a competitive group they know that already specter.

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