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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-21 9:05 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm less worried about hate for lands as I am hate for other strategies. Choke and Boil keep coming up, but they are pretty well known as very aggressive, probably dickish cards. Engineered plague or rest in peace or leyline of singularity are not so demonized, and more likely to appear in mid-level playgroups.

3 Card wishes is thematic, but very restrictive. I'm interested to see what your group think of it, and whether you are better off swapping the wish for one of the cards you wish for most often.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-21 10:18 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
cryogen wrote:
I'm glad to hear that you're going to try out wishes, but giving them restrictions like that is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you think? I'd much rather see results from "we just allowed wishes and waited to see what happened".


> Self-fulfilling Prophecy

By that, do you mean that a 3-card wishboard will be so innocuous as to not matter? Without being snide, a wishboard of 3 cards fall prey to the same "you may have exactly 100 cards, no more, no less" argument as a 10 or 15 card wishboard would. Wish players in my group being afforded 'greater options', per the arguments against.

I think if we look at the context of my group, it's not really likely that any data I provide will be convincing to anyone even if we had 15 card wishboards.

"The same four people who meet up once a week, like to play the same kind of game, and avoid arms races have decided include Wishes into their games."

That is exactly the not-set of people that wish-detractors are afraid will construct hateboards or do anything remotely degenerate. I think Wishboards being 3-cards will have very little to do with whether my data is convincing or not.

-----

We play once a week, so, there's definitely a desire to keep things as light as possible so that it doesn't ruin anything (some of my compatriots are suspicious of wishes. We'll see how it plays out). Realistically, my group will play maybe four games in a week. So, the actual number of games in which wishes feature will likely not matter; maybe once a week someone will play a wish, and may even have the tempo to play the card they wish for after a 3-4 mana sorcery/instant, and then the card may have an impact on the game.

Just the overall setup. The best case scenario for seeing how wishes would pan out would be to replace one of your tutors or draw spells or piece of removal with a wish card and build the wish board you would naturally want to have (or use your whole collection if you want), and then just see what happens.

I call it a self-fulfilling prophesy if you start with the premise that you have a wish board so limited that you may as well just run that card instead, and you preemptively discuss the kinds of cards you do and don't want to see played. Using those parameters I think we can get rid of the ban list altogether. "Hey guys, let's test Sylvan Primordial, only we will just fetch basic lands and won't blink or recur it."

Also, while I don't disagree with your conclusion about the total investment required in running a wish, I think you are willfully neglecting to bring up the opportunity cost involved. I can spend B to Vamp Tutor for Torpor Orb or Leyline of the Void or Mindlock Orb and it's a lot cheaper than doing that with a wish. But because those cards are in my sideboard, I freed up three cards in my main deck for spells that I'll want to draw every single game, not just some of them. THAT is the power of wishes and that's why the extra expense is justified.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 12:26 am 
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specter404 wrote:
I'm less worried about hate for lands as I am hate for other strategies. Choke and Boil keep coming up, but they are pretty well known as very aggressive, probably dickish cards. Engineered plague or rest in peace or leyline of singularity are not so demonized, and more likely to appear in mid-level playgroups.
I think something like Rest in Peace will almost always find a way into a maindeck for a meta that is willing to play that kind of hate. It doesn't just stop graveyard-oriented decks; it shuts off death triggers from things like Grave Pact, Aristocrats-style cards like Blood Artist. I think these strategies or sub-strategies are common enough that you will probably want to draw RIP most of the time.

For my meta, it would, because the wish-angle isn't really viable (on account of it being an enchantment; you're basically hoping for Fae of Wishes or Mastermind's Acquisition.

Singularity is another story; that's pretty narrow. I think there are probably better ways to hate on duplicate cards (which are usually tokens), like Propaganda. Leyline of Singularity might be maindecked in some 'legendary permanent matters' deck, featuring something like Arvad the Cursed. Sounds bad, but fun!

Quote:
3 Card wishes is thematic, but very restrictive. I'm interested to see what your group think of it, and whether you are better off swapping the wish for one of the cards you wish for most often.

Yes. I mean, it's not lost on me that each wish in decks, assuming they can fetch all three, are like a really expensive charm.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 12:39 am 
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cryogen wrote:
Just the overall setup. The best case scenario for seeing how wishes would pan out would be to replace one of your tutors or draw spells or piece of removal with a wish card and build the wish board you would naturally want to have (or use your whole collection if you want), and then just see what happens.
I call it a self-fulfilling prophesy if you start with the premise that you have a wish board so limited that you may as well just run that card instead, and you preemptively discuss the kinds of cards you do and don't want to see played. Using those parameters I think we can get rid of the ban list altogether. "Hey guys, let's test Sylvan Primordial, only we will just fetch basic lands and won't blink or recur it."
I don't disagree. We'll probably increase the number once we've played it a bit. It's not lost on me that wishes are basically expensive modal spells in my group. It's just, how modal does it have to be before it becomes a problem for people, is an open question. Obviously more than '3', but, less than 'your whole collection'.

My group is taking it very slow, but that's fine.

Quote:
Also, while I don't disagree with your conclusion about the total investment required in running a wish, I think you are willfully neglecting to bring up the opportunity cost involved. I can spend B to Vamp Tutor for Torpor Orb or Leyline of the Void or Mindlock Orb and it's a lot cheaper than doing that with a wish. But because those cards are in my sideboard, I freed up three cards in my main deck for spells that I'll want to draw every single game, not just some of them. THAT is the power of wishes and that's why the extra expense is justified.

Look, I don't disagree. Wishes shouldn't be free, clearly.

But, I think that's the whole point of allowing wishes is so that we can circumvent that opportunity cost. Much of the debate here has framed it as a bad thing, and couched it in terms of boil/choke/hate-cards. I would like to see narrow cards that aren't hate cards. And I think that we will. The point I'm trying to make is that narrow hate cards aren't actually good enough to pay for with Wishes. Once the hate card is good enough to wish for, it's probably good enough to maindeck (i.e. Rest in Peace in my previous post).

We could wish for hate cards, and it's been illustrated a few times that you're basically paying 6+ mana (or 5+ mana and half your life) for a 'devastating' piece of hate, but, there are more versatile/good pieces of hate that you'd rather maindeck and tutor for cheaper. Basically, I would venture that the narrow hate you want to run is so awful that you could run something more versatile maindeck and tutor for it to be more optimal about hating your opponents out. If the hate is good enough, you wouldn't want it in your wishboard anyway, because there are more and less mana-intensive tutors to find it in your maindeck.

Wishes for hate cards are the pants-on-head version of villainy, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 8:10 am 
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Sinis wrote:
Once the hate card is good enough to wish for, it's probably good enough to maindeck

Just remove the word "hate" from that sentence, and that's why people say wishes = lazy deckbuilding.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 10:53 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
If the hate is good enough, you wouldn't want it in your wishboard anyway.

The point of using wishes is to find niche cards that are not good enough to maindeck, but have a large effect when used at the exact right moment. The cards we are talking about are quite intentionally not commonly played in maindecks.

RIP is good enough to maindeck sometimes, which means you have to think about the cost-benefit. Wishes take away the thinking, they take away the cost and make it all benefit. It seems you play against the same group almost all the time, so you dont need to worry about if your hate card will be good or not, you already know. When I start a game with a group at the shop, I dont know if Im going to play against Jimmy with his storm deck, or Amy with her tokens deck, or Shannon with their graveyard deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 11:16 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Sinis wrote:
Once the hate card is good enough to wish for, it's probably good enough to maindeck

Just remove the word "hate" from that sentence, and that's why people say wishes = lazy deckbuilding.

It is unclear to me why we should care about that.

Some people netdeck. Some people use edhrec. Some people just play unmodified precons.

Plenty of people are lazy in deckbuilding without wishes. I really don't see why we should be forcing some sort of work ethic on people for a card game.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 11:23 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
The point of using wishes is to find niche cards that are not good enough to maindeck, but have a large effect when used at the exact right moment. The cards we are talking about are quite intentionally not commonly played in maindecks.


Those cards could be ones like Lucky Clover. Everyone is stuck on hate-boards and how they'll become the thing people use, and I don't have any rebuttal except that if you're willing to play hate, you're willing to maindeck it, full stop. More than that, you will probably have to maindeck hate *anyway*, because games rarely end with the first piece you leverage, unless your opponent's deck isn't very resilient and folds to the first answer it sees.

Quote:
RIP is good enough to maindeck sometimes,


I'll be honest, it is good enough to maindeck every time you don't have a dedicated graveyard strategy. Graveyard/death trigger strategies have been so prominent in every environment I've played in that it has always done others harm.

Quote:
which means you have to think about the cost-benefit. Wishes take away the thinking, they take away the cost and make it all benefit.
Kind of. It just expands it to the 100 slots you typically have, plus whatever the wishboard size is.

I understand the point that people are trying to make about opportunity costs, and having the benefit of not drawing narrow cards that suck, but, I believe that's a good thing. I think it opens up new strategies to play with niche cards that people don't generally play because they're "not good enough" in most play circumstances.

Quote:
It seems you play against the same group almost all the time, so you dont need to worry about if your hate card will be good or not, you already know.


I play against randoms at LGSs as well. That's how I met my people in my group. I still play with randoms, and it's still going to be the same grab bag everyone else faces. Maybe people in Toronto are more pro-social in their card choices than people in other cities.

Quote:
When I start a game with a group at the shop, I dont know if Im going to play against Jimmy with his storm deck, or Amy with her tokens deck, or Shannon with their graveyard deck.

The more I think about this scenario, the more I think "Gosh, it's weird that people want to win or lose in the deckbuilding phase."

Let's say you maindecked hate for Jimmy and Amy, but not for Shannon because you ran out of room. Doesn't it feel bad that you just kind of lose to Shannon because you didn't pack enough hate? Why not have a Wish that lets you cover her reanimation strategy? In the universe in which wishes are allowed, it's not like they won't have the same advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-22 11:53 pm 
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Sinis wrote:
I understand the point that people are trying to make about opportunity costs, and having the benefit of not drawing narrow cards that suck, but, I believe that's a good thing. I think it opens up new strategies to play with niche cards that people don't generally play because they're "not good enough" in most play circumstances.

Then why not just adjust the # of cards in the deck? Won't upping the deck size to 120 mean that you've now got 13-14 non-land slots where you can fit things that are "not good enough" for a 100 card deck?

In fact, if we increase the minimum, won't that force people to play more less-used cards, or cards that almost made the cut but didn't? That seems to be the benefit that you're saying wishes give deck builders.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 12:35 am 
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Carthain wrote:
Then why not just adjust the # of cards in the deck? Won't upping the deck size to 120 mean that you've now got 13-14 non-land slots where you can fit things that are "not good enough" for a 100 card deck?

In fact, if we increase the minimum, won't that force people to play more less-used cards, or cards that almost made the cut but didn't? That seems to be the benefit that you're saying wishes give deck builders.
I had another post in response, but deleted it because I don't think I made my point.

I don't think upping the minimum will afford people the same opportunity wishes does. Take a narrow block mechanic reward card you might want to play, like Lucky Clover. A Wish player, if they happen to draw a wish and some critical number of adventurers, might wish for Lucky Clover, despite the costs involved in playing a Wish to get it. If not, at least the Wish isn't a completely dead card, and maybe there is some other narrow proactive card that better conforms to the situation.

If you increase the deck size to 120, Lucky Clover is even less viable, because you're necessarily decreasing the percentage of your deck that's adventurers.

(I keep coming back to Lucky Clover because it's recent; the same holds true for something like Enhanced Surveillance, or Energy payout cards, strategies involving Clue tokens, etc.)

I'm saying the removal of opportunity cost by using a Wish is a feature, not something that we should wring our hands over.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 1:01 am 
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FYI: I agree with your assessment on why just adding 20 cards may not be the same. But I still have troubles seeing your best case scenario as being what people end up tending towards or staying at.

Sinis wrote:
I had another post in response, but deleted it because I don't think I made my point.
Ahh - that explains why the board didn't like when I hit 'preview' on my reply to it :) (I'm not making sure that I'm reading what you're saying in the new post as well :) )

Sinis wrote:
I'm saying the removal of opportunity cost by using a Wish is a feature, not something that we should wring our hands over.
The problem I see is your assumption that people won't abuse that 'feature'. I (and others) don't see that assumption as a given like you seem to.

I say this not just to be devils advocate, or because I have a dim view on people being able to play nice - I say that because I mostly stick to my own playgroup because I've run into people playing not-nice cards (IMO) and I choose not to deal with it by not playing with those players.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 1:27 am 
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Carthain wrote:
The problem I see is your assumption that people won't abuse that 'feature'. I (and others) don't see that assumption as a given like you seem to.
While I understand your concern, and that it is possible...

The format is already ripe for abuse. Wishes do not even rank on the abusable things available. I think that anyone who abuses Wishes to be anti-social would already be more than capable with what's already available.

If a player wants to be anti-social in EDH, Wishes are not going to be the thing that allows them to cross some threshold into making games miserable. Those options are already available, and are not significantly improved by making Wishes legal (in terms of restricting them to a wishboard, colour identity, and having them not duplicated in the maindeck).

Quote:
I say this not just to be devils advocate, or because I have a dim view on people being able to play nice - I say that because I mostly stick to my own playgroup because I've run into people playing not-nice cards (IMO) and I choose not to deal with it by not playing with those players.

I guess, I want to stress that you've had games ruined by strangers... but it's not clear to me how Wishes would worsen the situation. They were already intent on pursuing a strategy you would not find enjoyable, and were probably going to be successful at it, because this format is pretty broken in terms of balance. Antisocial players are already going to play antisocially, and I think Wishes are sort of beside the point given the players intent.

Wishes weren't ever going to change that problem with the format. Given that strangers you've played with managed to ruin the game without wishes, is it really all that bad if they were to ruin the game with wishes? Aren't the direst consequences of the abusability of the format (you not playing with strangers) already realized? Moreover, I think the discussion around Wishing for narrow anti-social hate cards kind of shows how ineffective they would be compared to existing options.

I guess my tl;dr point is "People can already ruin games, so what harm is there in adding one more ineffective tool to the arsenal when there are so many already available?"

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 1:54 am 
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Sinis wrote:
Those options are already available, and are not significantly improved by making Wishes legal (in terms of restricting them to a wishboard, colour identity, and having them not duplicated in the maindeck).

It all depends on the restrictions placed upon the wishes. There's been some people in this thread vocal of a "Let them use their whole collection" which I find to be a situation that doesn't agree with your assessment.

Sinis wrote:
but it's not clear to me how Wishes would worsen the situation.
Consider that obscurity, the same obscurity that I have believing that they won't be used to make games significantly less fun.

Sinis wrote:
Wishes weren't ever going to change that problem with the format. Given that strangers you've played with managed to ruin the game without wishes, is it really all that bad if they were to ruin the game with wishes?
Yes? I mean... why give them more routes/tools to ruin games? When they maindeck it, it requires them to devote a slot to the bad card. With a wish they can fall back on the "at least I didn't maindeck it" (as if that helps it sting less) or something similar.

That's kind of like saying "Hey, some jerk can really hurt someone with a hunting rifle, so is it really so bad that we let them have throwing knives?" Yes... yes it is bad.

And you keep calling it 'ineffective' as if the increased mana cost (in a game that slings around 7+ mana spells) is really that much of a deterrent. Sure, if you only have 1-3 things in your wishboard, then it's a glorified charm -- but when you have 30+ options, players can be quite willing to pay that increased cost for the huge amounts of versatility that it provides.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 2:15 am 
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Carthain wrote:
It all depends on the restrictions placed upon the wishes. There's been some people in this thread vocal of a "Let them use their whole collection" which I find to be a situation that doesn't agree with your assessment.
I don't really believe people should be able to have collection-wide wishes, mostly for logistical purposes. I think that a wishboard of 10/15 cards with the other bounds I've specified would be reasonable.

Quote:
Sinis wrote:
but it's not clear to me how Wishes would worsen the situation.
Consider that obscurity, the same obscurity that I have believing that they won't be used to make games significantly less fun.
I agree that they could be used to make the game less fun. But they also might be used to make it more fun. Like Kokusho, or Deadeye Navigator.

Quote:
Sinis wrote:
Wishes weren't ever going to change that problem with the format. Given that strangers you've played with managed to ruin the game without wishes, is it really all that bad if they were to ruin the game with wishes?
Yes? I mean... why give them more routes/tools to ruin games? When they maindeck it, it requires them to devote a slot to the bad card. With a wish they can fall back on the "at least I didn't maindeck it" (as if that helps it sting less) or something similar.

That's kind of like saying "Hey, some jerk can really hurt someone with a hunting rifle, so is it really so bad that we let them have throwing knives?" Yes... yes it is bad.
I guess this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not of the opinion that the guy with the hunting rifle and knives is significantly dangerous than a guy with just a hunting rifle. It just doesn't matter much to me (or practical outcomes) when they already have a hunting rifle.

Quote:
And you keep calling it 'ineffective' as if the increased mana cost (in a game that slings around 7+ mana spells) is really that much of a deterrent. Sure, if you only have 1-3 things in your wishboard, then it's a glorified charm -- but when you have 30+ options, players can be quite willing to pay that increased cost for the huge amounts of versatility that it provides.

I call it ineffective because people cite laughably ineffective options, especially enchantments that they should probably maindeck if they're going to play them at all.

Is the versatility worth the cost? Yes, or I wouldn't care either way if people played them. But, if a player is going to play a card like Choke in their wishboard, then their maindeck is probably not far behind in terms of antisocial cards. Same argument, I know, but, I would venture that nearly every option they could use is more efficient than a Wish for something you don't like.

That you don't like knives is hardly material when someone with ill-intent already has a hunting rifle.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-23 3:07 am 
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Sinis wrote:
That you don't like knives is hardly material when someone with ill-intent already has a hunting rifle.

That's not a reason to let them have knives.


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