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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-10 1:54 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Shoe wrote:
So, to try and summarise a pros and cons list:

PROS:
- Simplifies rules of commander
- Allows for people to play more of their cards
- niche cards are more likely to get some play.

CONS:
- Wishes cause some of the same consistency issues tutors do
- Wishes might be used to find the same niche cards over and over again.

While not strictly 'con's -- there are still other concerns: Do we allow full collections or just a wishboard? if a wishboard -- how big do we allow it? If not a wishboard, do we suggest a time limit so as the game doesn't just die to someone taking 10 minutes to find just the right card? These are things that have previously been handled by house rules, but would really need to be defined if we're going to allow wishes.

You want to allow them so as to let there be more cool & interesting plays ... but if that play comes at a cost of "I had to sit for 15 minutes while my friend ran up to his room to root through his cards for just the right card" -- I'd say the change fails that goal spectacularly.

There's also contention about your pros there: we may be removing rule #13, but adding in at least one other rule (about where wishes can pull from, and if it must be constrained to your commander colour identity or not) so we're not simplifying the rules here at all. We'd be removing a 'shadow ban' -- that's for sure. Also, I don't think you've given any proof that niche cards are more likely to be played (it balances nicely with people's concerns that hate cards would see more play -- which you didn't list.)


Shoe wrote:
It really seems to be coming down to "How do players behave with wishes".
That's a fairly good summary. And I think it sums things up better than your pro/con list :)

Shoe wrote:
I don't currently have a playgroup, but I might get in a few games here on vacation in a few months. If I get a chance to play I'll try some wishes out here and there in my decks.
So ... will you have a wishboard? Are you going to limit yourself in any way, or just add in anything that might be something you'd want at the time?


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-10 7:13 am 
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Carthain wrote:
While not strictly 'con's -- there are still other concerns: Do we allow full collections or just a wishboard? if a wishboard -- how big do we allow it? If not a wishboard, do we suggest a time limit so as the game doesn't just die to someone taking 10 minutes to find just the right card? These are things that have previously been handled by house rules, but would really need to be defined if we're going to allow wishes.


I've said multiple times, I am anti-wishboard. If wishboard is the only way wishes can be legal, I prefer the status quo. Wishboards DO have all the issues you present about lack of variance. Wishing form a collection would be the only version of wishing that both simplifies the commander rules AND allows for niche and unused cards to possibly be wished for. No one is wasting a spot in a wishboard of ANY size for an Excruciator

Quote:
You want to allow them so as to let there be more cool & interesting plays ... but if that play comes at a cost of "I had to sit for 15 minutes while my friend ran up to his room to root through his cards for just the right card" -- I'd say the change fails that goal spectacularly.


I've addressed this many times above. Wasting your friends and/or playgroup's time is a clear violation of rule 1 and just a dick move. Playing social games will prevent this IMHO.
Quote:
There's also contention about your pros there: we may be removing rule #13, but adding in at least one other rule (about where wishes can pull from, and if it must be constrained to your commander colour identity or not) so we're not simplifying the rules here at all. We'd be removing a 'shadow ban' -- that's for sure. Also, I don't think you've given any proof that niche cards are more likely to be played (it balances nicely with people's concerns that hate cards would see more play -- which you didn't list.)


I don't have a problem with hate cards. Carpet of FLowers for example, is a fine hate card. I DO have problems with anti-social play. Choke and Boil are a problem because of anti-social play NOT because wishes suddenly make them more prevalent.

Quote:
Shoe wrote:
It really seems to be coming down to "How do players behave with wishes".
That's a fairly good summary. And I think it sums things up better than your pro/con list :)


I think this is the point the argument has basicall gotten us to. The only way I can think of to answer the question is widepsread testing, which I cannot do alone. But can we at least agree it's worth testing?
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Shoe wrote:
I don't currently have a playgroup, but I might get in a few games here on vacation in a few months. If I get a chance to play I'll try some wishes out here and there in my decks.
So ... will you have a wishboard? Are you going to limit yourself in any way, or just add in anything that might be something you'd want at the time?


See above, I do not think wishboards are a viable option. I will be wishing from my collection RAW from the comp rules. I dont think any other changes aside from abolishing rule 13 are even worth consideration. If we can't get rid of rule 13 without replacement rules, it should stay as is.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-10 7:33 am 
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Shoe wrote:
Wishing form a collection would be the only version of wishing that both simplifies the commander rules AND allows for niche and unused cards to possibly be wished for.

Please stop saying it simplifies the rules -- it doesn't (see below.)

Shoe wrote:
I've addressed this many times above. Wasting your friends and/or playgroup's time is a clear violation of rule 1 and just a dick move. Playing social games will prevent this IMHO.
And your mileage may vary on how well that plays out. That's why you "addressing" it doesn't mean it's still not a potential concern.

Shoe wrote:
Carthain wrote:
There's also contention about your pros there: we may be removing rule #13, but adding in at least one other rule (about where wishes can pull from, and if it must be constrained to your commander colour identity or not) so we're not simplifying the rules here at all. We'd be removing a 'shadow ban' -- that's for sure. Also, I don't think you've given any proof that niche cards are more likely to be played (it balances nicely with people's concerns that hate cards would see more play -- which you didn't list.)

I don't have a problem with hate cards. Carpet of FLowers for example, is a fine hate card. I DO have problems with anti-social play. Choke and Boil are a problem because of anti-social play NOT because wishes suddenly make them more prevalent.
Nice straw-man there. I mention niche cards, and you respond by arguing against hate cards. Hate cards and niche cards are not necessarily the same.

Shoe wrote:
But can we at least agree it's worth testing?
I can agree it may be interesting to see the results, but I don't have the attitude that it'll be what you say, so I can't say I'll be overly eager to do any of this testing.


Shoe wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Shoe wrote:
I don't currently have a playgroup, but I might get in a few games here on vacation in a few months. If I get a chance to play I'll try some wishes out here and there in my decks.
So ... will you have a wishboard? Are you going to limit yourself in any way, or just add in anything that might be something you'd want at the time?

See above, I do not think wishboards are a viable option. I will be wishing from my collection RAW from the comp rules.

So... are you always playing at home, or are you carting your whole collection with you when you go to play? If you're not taking your whole collection and playing away from home - then you are effectively having a wishboard -- it just may not be limited in size by any rules (self-imposed or otherwise.)

Shoe wrote:
I dont think any other changes aside from abolishing rule 13 are even worth consideration. If we can't get rid of rule 13 without replacement rules, it should stay as is.

Then what's the point? Because I can guarantee you'll need at least one rule to say that you can't wish for a card outside of your commander's colours (or, that you can do so if that's what's decided on -- something I drastically disagree with) .. because otherwise you're going to have people constantly asking that very question.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-10 12:24 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
As I understand it, Shoe is suggesting a free-for-all approach. You will be allowed to wish for any card, in your colour identity or not, banned or not. The comp rules + gatherer ruling for this do not specify anything other than it must be a traditional magic card. That excludes silver borders but no other magic cards. Edit: silver border cards would also be allowed.

That is how it would work if you simply remove rule 13. Based on this I would say no, I do not believe it is worth testing because I do not want the capacity for people to play a swath of narrow answers with little to no downside.

I enjoy playing graveyard decks and I dont like the idea that any deck can tutor graveyard hate without having to dilute their deck with those cards in games when it's not relevant. People wont play relic of progenitus or scavenger grounds in their deck normally, but they will play living wish or golden wish. It's not about the big anti-social hate cards, it's about the rule of laws and crawlspaces. The cards that are niche and narrow and should not be available to any random pick up game. Every strategy has an answer, and wishes give every deck and answer to every strategy in every game. I dont think we need Allen Iverson in Commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-10 3:44 pm 
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Personally, I straight-up do not get the argument that wishes allow you to play under/unused cards. Every time I hear this argument, my immediate response is "why are you not just running that card instead of the wish?" If you want to play something jank or niche, do it and own it. With few exceptions, wishing for cards seems to be an exercise in laziness or lack of creativity, not taking the time to weigh whether or not you actually want to include the card in the deck but just going with the easy option of "well, why not just run all of them?"

I took Mana Reflection out of my beloved Omnath deck and replaced it with a really cool-looking foil Heal the Scars. I've been slowly but surely cutting cards from my 8.5 Tails deck to make room for the various foxes in magic (the ones that aren't complete garbage, anywho). My Jhoira deck runs original Tibalt and Masticore, and I make a conscious effort to include Bladebrand, Psychotic Fury, and Twisted Image in as many decks as I can.

Every single one of the above decisions is meaningful not just because I do some cool interaction or play with an underappreciated card, but because of the implied opportunity cost. Every time I play a Psychogenic Probe or Blood Clock or Rescue from the Underworld, that's a card that could have been anything else, but I picked it for the deck because it meant something. This is also true at the level of staples, as we've now gotten to the point where there are so many of them that "goodstuff" decks are dying out left and right. You can't just throw Acidic Slime into every green creature-heavy deck anymore; you have to weigh it against Reclamation Sage, Knight of Autumn, Bane of Progress, and a dozen or so other cards that do the same thing but slightly differently.

There's then the other problem with wishes getting odd or unused cards: they have the same problem as "toolbox" cards/decks do. Sure, you have 20 or so equipment to fetch with your Steelshaper's Gift, but 99/100 times the card you search for is going to be one of three. I have some trouble believing that over time, the same thing won't start to happen with wishes. Granted, since the card pool is so large, it'll be one of 10 different cards, but it still will be self-restricted.

This is also why narrow hate cards get so much discussion. When you're spending an extra 2-5 mana on this spell-that-wasn't-good-enough-to-make-your-deck, the easiest way to get a good bang for your buck is to get something really cheap and perfect for the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-10 4:51 pm 
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Shoe wrote:
Wishing form a collection would be the only version of wishing that both simplifies the commander rules AND allows for niche and unused cards to possibly be wished for.

Hold up a second - there's a very real practicality here that I think this is ignoring - let's assume the wish functionality is restored. How - exactly - do you think this works?

Where are you playing the games?
Where is your collection?

I'm lucky enough that our playgroup plays at my house. If wishes "worked" I'd be sweet. EVERYONE ELSE would be screwed unless they brought their entire collection with them, which is clearly not feasible. So what do they do? Bring some of their collection? Which ones? Kinda starts looking like a wishboard, doesn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-10 6:28 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
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Viperion wrote:
Shoe wrote:
Wishing form a collection would be the only version of wishing that both simplifies the commander rules AND allows for niche and unused cards to possibly be wished for.

Hold up a second - there's a very real practicality here that I think this is ignoring - let's assume the wish functionality is restored. How - exactly - do you think this works?

Where are you playing the games?
Where is your collection?

I'm lucky enough that our playgroup plays at my house. If wishes "worked" I'd be sweet. EVERYONE ELSE would be screwed unless they brought their entire collection with them, which is clearly not feasible. So what do they do? Bring some of their collection? Which ones? Kinda starts looking like a wishboard, doesn't it?

Wishboards are typically a fixed-size attachment to a deck.

What's being described here is just "whatever cards I bring with me at the time". I might have a pile of 40 Eldrazi I bring along in case Spawnsire goes off. I could even wish from another deck I brought along that night. That doesn't resemble a wishboard.

It's like how being able to swap out some cards between games from the cards I brought along with me isn't the same as having a sideboard.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-10 11:32 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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spacemonaut wrote:
Wishboards are typically a fixed-size attachment to a deck.

What's being described here is just "whatever cards I bring with me at the time".

That's splitting hairs that don't matter. First off, you say a wishboard is typically fixed-sized. That means it doesn't need to be. Secondly, if someone is wishing from a subset of his/her collection based on what they brought with them -- then that's a wishboard. It's doing nothing for them other than being a collection of wish targets. It's just the size limit ends up being "whatever you feel like carrying around with the deck."

Even if you wish for a card from another of your decks -- it's simply that deck is in your wishboard (and you may or may not be able to wish for every card in your wishboard.)

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Sure, you have 20 or so equipment to fetch with your Steelshaper's Gift, but 99/100 times the card you search for is going to be one of three. I have some trouble believing that over time, the same thing won't start to happen with wishes.
I agree with this completely. My Trinket Mage will 90% of the time get me Sol Ring or Divining Top. Only occasionally does it get me other things like a crypt or pithing needle.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-15 6:20 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON
cryogen wrote:
So if you do use wishes (for those of you who do use them), which wish cards do you use? What do you run in your sideboard? How big is your sideboard?

I do not currently use wishes, but...

I might use Death Wish to get Repay in Kind and make the game the lightning round.

I might use Cunning Wish to get Harrow if I was starved for lands.

I might play Glittering Wish in my almost-all-guild-color Niv-Mizzet Reborn deck. For maybe a proactive threat. Maybe I'll just shuffle a pile of cards that all meet the criteria and pick one at random!

I might play Fae of Wishes to get a card with the Madness mechanic, which seems to dovetail nicely with the activated ability on the main text, and has a mischief-y feel to it.

Burning Wish could find Smallpox, Pox, or Fraying Omnipotence depending on how the game is going. Maybe everything in my Burning Wishboard would be a kind of big, bigger, biggest comedy bit.

It's easy to fall into the trap of "let's just have an answerboard", but I think there's more interesting things to do than police people's boards. I think Cunning Wish is the greatest of these; since it is an instant, there is a certain dovetail of wanting to have instant flexibility to match.

You could play it as a 'wrong answers only' thread, where the cards you wish for are convoluted and inefficient.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-15 6:39 am 
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Sinis wrote:
It's easy to fall into the trap of "let's just have an answerboard", but I think there's more interesting things to do than police people's boards.

Right - but I don't feel "Do what you want" will turn out beneficial for the majority of players. And as much as there are some people who want to do fun & interesting things, I've not seen any sort of proof that this would extend to the playerbase at large.

As such, this is why we don't think it's a good idea - because we don't want the hassle of policing people's wishboards. As you said, it's easy to fall into the trap of making it an answerboard. So why do you think it would be overall beneficial to allow wishes vs more detrimental to the format?


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-15 7:33 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
That flies in the face of "Build Casual, Play Competitive". You can put cunning wish in your deck so that you could get harrow, but if you have 5 open mana and a cunning wish in hand, an opponent casts craterhoof for the win, are you going to pass, or are you going to go get an essence scatter?

Intent and reality are not always going to line up, and I'd argue majority of players in the situation are going to make the play that doesn't lose the game if they can. The important question with wishes is not what CAN you do, we all know cards CAN be fun. The question is what WILL you do.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-15 7:41 am 
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Carthain wrote:
Sinis wrote:
It's easy to fall into the trap of "let's just have an answerboard", but I think there's more interesting things to do than police people's boards.

Right - but I don't feel "Do what you want" will turn out beneficial for the majority of players. And as much as there are some people who want to do fun & interesting things, I've not seen any sort of proof that this would extend to the playerbase at large.


I'll be honest, I don't know how to address this. This is the most permissive format to have ever existed in Magic. You are permitted to play cEDH, and yet the people who 'abuse' the options available to them are vanishingly few.

You argue "Do what you want" doesn't work out within the context of "Do what you want" as a format.

This format is about doing what you want.

I don't actually know how to respond other than "We are already doing what we want and not doing what we don't want in this format."

If "Doing what you want" isn't working out, then, I think, this whole format isn't working out. Clearly that's false.

Quote:
As such, this is why we don't think it's a good idea - because we don't want the hassle of policing people's wishboards. As you said, it's easy to fall into the trap of making it an answerboard. So why do you think it would be overall beneficial to allow wishes vs more detrimental to the format?

Can we stop circling around to this point? As has been stated before, if someone wants to do something mean or broken, or run an answerboard, they will. Currently, they do it with tutors, which are already more efficient and effective than Wishes. Someone from a competitive scene that allowed Wishes already chimed in: People looking to optimize in this format don't use it because it's not good enough.

specter404 wrote:
That flies in the face of "Build Casual, Play Competitive". You can put cunning wish in your deck so that you could get harrow, but if you have 5 open mana and a cunning wish in hand, an opponent casts craterhoof for the win, are you going to pass, or are you going to go get an essence scatter?
Implying that I'm going to carry around an Essence Scatter for this.

Quote:
Intent and reality are not always going to line up, and I'd argue majority of players in the situation are going to make the play that doesn't lose the game if they can. The important question with wishes is not what CAN you do, we all know cards CAN be fun. The question is what WILL you do.
We all CAN build cEDH decks, but vanishingly few of us do. Our intent and reality often *do* align.

-----

I like how I put out a bunch of fun applications for wishes, and the only response I get is the same we ever get: Answerboards, answerboards, answerboards.

We can already play oppressive piles. The vast majority of us choose not to. I don't think Wishes are going to change that; we can self-regulate how we use wishes in the exact same way we can self-regulate literally every other aspect of this format.

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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-15 8:00 am 
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This is exactly where I am at. Playing commander implies that you are following rule #1 the social contract. If your group wants to answer-board it up, fine. Let em. If they dont, then that should be discussed amongst your playgroup too.
If the RC finds specific (or all) "outside the game" cards (let a call them what they are, only half are wishes) problematic, let's just ban em like everything else. How you gonna answer-board with Spawnsire of ulamog or Research // development?


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-15 8:26 am 
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Sinis wrote:
You argue "Do what you want" doesn't work out within the context of "Do what you want" as a format.

And we do hear about problems that people have because of this. We get new people joining the format under incorrect assumptions about what the format is about.

And, I don't see the format as "Doing what you want" -- there's rules on how commanders work, there's a ban list.

Sure the format is more permissive and actively encourages house rules -- but that doesn't mean you can just do what you want. You can't just play Genju of the Realm as your commander -- you have to make sure others are okay with it -- so, house rules... but allowing house rules is a far cry from something as simple as "Do what you want."

Sinis wrote:
Can we stop circling around to this point? As has been stated before, if someone wants to do something mean or broken, or run an answerboard, they will. Currently, they do it with tutors, which are already more efficient and effective than Wishes.

So why should we allow them more ways to do this? Also, including those cards in your deck is an opportunity cost. Including them in a wishboard (of no size limit) has zero opportunity cost. Yes, it's slower as you have the wish cost on top of it - but you've completely removed the opportunity cost which is a much harder than simple mana increase for the flexibility. So, you can say it's been stated before - but that doesn't mean that answer is acceptable, as it seems like you're not looking at the whole picture.

Sinis wrote:
Implying that I'm going to carry around an Essence Scatter for this.
Please stop assuming we're just talking about you -- we're worried about what a bunch of other people will end up doing and how that will affect how people feel about the format. So just because you won't do that doesn't mean that's a valid rebuttal to the potential problem being raised.

Sinis wrote:
I like how I put out a bunch of fun applications for wishes, and the only response I get is the same we ever get: Answerboards, answerboards, answerboards.
Because those fun applications would be fine. But you've failed to show how that's how it'll be used. We don't unban thing because of the fun things they can do, we unban them because we're confident enough that any bad things they do are acceptable for the added benefit they give.


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 Post subject: Re: Wish you were here: A mechanic defunct
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-15 8:58 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
We can already play oppressive piles. The vast majority of us choose not to. I don't think Wishes are going to change that; we can self-regulate how we use wishes in the exact same way we can self-regulate literally every other aspect of this format.

There is a ban list. IF the format worked the way that you and Show are suggesting we wouldn't need to ban anything at all. We definitely do not self regulate literally every other aspect of the format.

Shoe wrote:
This is exactly where I am at. Playing commander implies that you are following rule #1 the social contract. If your group wants to answer-board it up, fine. Let em. If they dont, then that should be discussed amongst your playgroup too.
If the RC finds specific (or all) "outside the game" cards (let a call them what they are, only half are wishes) problematic, let's just ban em like everything else. How you gonna answer-board with Spawnsire of ulamog or Research // development?

Rule 1 says that commander is meant to promote social games of magic. That is all it says. If everything worked based on that rule alone then we wouldn't have other rules.

The RC does consider wish cards unsociable, they are functionally banned. It makes more sense to put one line of text in the rules to say they are not allowed, than it is to individually list each card with that ability on the ban list. In addition not all wish mechanic cards only have the wish mechanic.

The mechanic is banned, for all intents and purposes the cards are banned.
Spawnsire breaks the rules by allowing you to fetch emrakul the aeons torn, spawnsire's activated ability is banned
R&D breaks the rules by allowing you to get cards which are not legal in the format, the research half of the card is banned.

The cards themselves remain unbanned, because if you want to play the large eldrazi body, or you want to play development, you are allowed to.

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Last edited by specter404 on 2019-Oct-17 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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