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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-02 4:32 pm 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
Ad Nauseum isn't even particularly strong in EDH

Ad Nauseam is straight-up busted in a deck designed to abuse it and this will be the same. I'm not often on the "this card should be banned" camp (and, for the record, I don't think this should be Grisel-banned) but any time you can pay (something other than mana) for spells there's the potential for abuse and something like this that lets you do it repeatedly really needs to be watched.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-02 5:46 pm 
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Viperion wrote:
Mr Degradation wrote:
Ad Nauseum isn't even particularly strong in EDH

Ad Nauseam is straight-up busted in a deck designed to abuse it and this will be the same. I'm not often on the "this card should be banned" camp (and, for the record, I don't think this should be Grisel-banned) but any time you can pay (something other than mana) for spells there's the potential for abuse and something like this that lets you do it repeatedly really needs to be watched.

Sure, but that's just EDH flavor. Decks are built to pivot on a type of piece that turns the game around. The sacrifice with AN usually comes from powerhouses like Living Death though. More importantly, though- as a tool, this loses out on the same sortof power from using lower CMC X spells that AN decks use to get ahead. It's obviously templated to prefer tools like Tendrils of Agony

From my own POV- this a powerful do-nothing that enables big plays; and those aren't especially rare in EDH. While Bargain was hyperbolic as a comparison; it's really more how as an enabler it's scope is fairly limited- and it's more or less constrained to being the XXXth card which if setup with a Scroll Rack over a prolonged period of time creates enough acceleration to break the usual rules of play. But, being honest- it's mostly going to pan out worse than Null Profusion, even in that regard. The Citadel belongs to a very powerful family of cards; but it doesn't do anything particularly sneaky, or in the realm of game ruination. These do-nothings have drastic opportunity costs, and if this is a buildaround that people are using over Panharmonicon, Paradox Engine, Revel in Riches, or Grave Pact; then in most games, it's a net win on the fun-side.

It's just a hot take. I like these sort of bomb-y cards that can be built around for extreme value; groups learn to play around them, punish them etc. This one just looks like it turns into a honeypot or a brick without extensive, committed setups. In terms of spoiled cards that have a bigger impact on how EDH plays out; the new Niv-Through-Time general could go either way between a blast, and the most irritating thing ever. Neheb Mk3 gives me mad Knollspine Dragon vibes- and I think it pushes creature wheeling harder than many previous cards. The new Tezzeret has that magical "affinity" word, the new Teferi has a very similar static ability to a particularly powerful Legendary creature as a 3 drop walker. Nissa is a mana doubler with a "untap a land, it's a 3/3"; which is threatening. New Tibalt and The Wanderer are going to surely draw some sodium onto Magic tables. Just a whole smorgasbord of EDH toys- that push some boundaries in not entirely uncomfortable ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-02 6:57 pm 
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This isn't a do-nothing because you can use it immediately after playing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-02 9:10 pm 
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Viperion wrote:
This isn't a do-nothing because you can use it immediately after playing it.

A bit pedantic- but I call it a "Do Nothing", and put it on the Clock of Omens scale, specifically because it's potential when setup is limitless, but it's likelyhood of actually doing anything when played blind is low, by even the most generous standards.

See an X spell? Brick
See a land after having made a land drop (probably to play the artifact)? Brick
See a situational spell without valid targets, or effects you more than opponents? Brick
See a card that would be better in the hand because of built-in cost reduction? Brick
Have a better land drop in hand than the one ontop of the deck? Brick

The EV (expected value) here is low without substantial setup- and even then the likelyhood of bricking is still there. The odds of hitting enough gas for this to pay for itself in the same turn as it's played are low without that setup. Even the mighty Doubling Season and Paradox Engines suffer from this reality of regular gameplay- before we even begin to factor how often you have to burn through your life resource to get passed awkward cards for gas, and what kinds of gas this card diminishes in efficiency.

Cards with value ceilings that are hard to view, do have to be commonly evaluated by their bassline- and this thing's baseline is "nothing." It's usefulness as a hail mary comes up short. But it creates loads of synergy, and doesn't have any upper limit to what it CAN do (like every other do nothing.) How many decks do I really want to consider this over Promise of Power, or Torment of Hailfire just for starters?

Again, I really don't want to poo-poo the fanfare over it being cool; but the dread of it's combo potential seems more like hype than uncharted territory. I would love to see cool, splashy plays with it (like Gravepurge combo;) but it's true power is likely too niche for this to become any sort of fun-ruining format bully.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-02 10:34 pm 
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I'm inclined to agree with you Mr Degradation, and I'm very interested to see how it plays out in practice.

I think we're scared based on how much it could do in an ideal situation and not based on how little it could do in an ordinary situation.

It *will* let someone power out Desolation Twin (with its twin!) in the same turn with luck, but that's something I'm interested in seeing available to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-02 11:55 pm 
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This is going to be a lot like Experimental Frenzy, yes it can let you cast 10 cards for the meager cost of 37 life... or you can hit 2 lands and someone will blow it up. Most likely it will be somewhere in between.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-03 12:09 pm 
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having played with a deck that used future sight extensively, the inherent card advantage of this card is very nice. and whiffing happens, but wont be as big of a problem as you might think. especially since you can tap out for this card and still use the cards you "draw"

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-03 1:16 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I had a similar response the first time I saw it, but I'm not one to jump the gun. My prediction is that it will be warping of the format to some extent. Why would you not put this card in your deck if you can? Why would you not target your copy or steal effects at it if you can? Why not throw in the top while you're there? I mean it's good by itself and amazing combined.

I believe it will break the ubiquity, format warping, and possibly too much value for too little input criteria that got prophet of Kruphix banned.

HOWEVER, I am not one to advocate bans without testing. If starts gaining heavy play all over the place then it will probably get banned. With the CAG around, we should be able to work out the extent of impact much faster than normal.

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 Post subject: I think so tooooooooo! *jumps into pile*
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-05 11:13 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
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*Disputing similarity with Yawg's Bargain noises*

Though when combined with Sensei's Divining Top it literally becomes Yawg's Bargain with upside (pay 1 life to cast the top, tap to draw/reset or cast from deck with life).

I think a 6 cmc triple black artifact falls into the camp of "highly targetable" so it won't be too hard to remove. It does play like a pseudo-Omniscience/Future Sight effect on turn one, putting it in the tier zero finisher category in my estimation. It'll have a hard time carrying a game by itself, but if the RNG lines up it'll just DO IT sometimes.

The best news is that it is BLACK. Most of the linear-nonsense artifact decks I know of prefer to be monocolor-that-isn't-black (I'm looking at you Padeem, Consul of Innovation), and I feel like triple {B} does a lot to delay it from being a reliable turn 6 (or a turn 4 sol-ring play) in most of the Breya, Etherium Shaper/Greedy Color artifact decks. It is a powerful piece that has a hard time fitting into existing top-tier decks, and it doesn't surpass/outshine/improve any unfun PUG decks I'm familiar with (Narset, Enlightened Master, Animar, Soul of Elements, Scion of the Ur-Dragon, etc.).

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-08 8:57 am 
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I'm pretty hype about this myself, but it's nowhere as good as Ad Nauseam or even Aetherflux Reservoir or Future Sight.

I am going to have some fun with it though, until I just "Meh!" and put Ad Naus back into the deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-13 10:37 am 
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CrazyPierre wrote:
I'm pretty hype about this myself, but it's nowhere as good as Ad Nauseam or even Aetherflux Reservoir or Future Sight.

That's... pretty debatable. Ad Nauseam needs a deck to be built to abuse it far more than this does, although if your deck IS built to abuse it it's probably more powerful, Bolas's Citadel can pretty much be jammed into any black deck and do its thing. Comparing it to Future Sight - again, there are pluses and minuses. Life vs. mana... it depends on your build, although I'm immediately suspicious of any card that makes spells "free". Aetherflux Reservoir... I'm not sure why you'd even compare these 2 cards, as they're quite different, although if you have BOTH in play it's incredibly stupid, especially if you have something like SDT, as you can very quickly go "infinite" on card draw and life gain.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-13 6:10 pm 
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You'd still have to put lifegain in your deck. It's not as if this is completely broken in any random deck. Merely very good.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-14 3:53 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
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Shabbaman wrote:
You'd still have to put lifegain in your deck. It's not as if this is completely broken in any random deck. Merely very good.


because no boring shmuck has ever had a black deck full of gray merchant of basstomouth, kokusho, exsanguinate, disciple of bolas, krav etc. etc. effects at all... Honestly black has become the king of incidental mass lifegain in the last few years so putting lifegain in your deck is hardly a drawback.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-14 5:30 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
CrazyPierre wrote:
I'm pretty hype about this myself, but it's nowhere as good as Ad Nauseam or even Aetherflux Reservoir or Future Sight.

That's... pretty debatable. Ad Nauseam needs a deck to be built to abuse it far more than this does, although if your deck IS built to abuse it it's probably more powerful, Bolas's Citadel can pretty much be jammed into any black deck and do its thing. Comparing it to Future Sight - again, there are pluses and minuses. Life vs. mana... it depends on your build, although I'm immediately suspicious of any card that makes spells "free". Aetherflux Reservoir... I'm not sure why you'd even compare these 2 cards, as they're quite different, although if you have BOTH in play it's incredibly stupid, especially if you have something like SDT, as you can very quickly go "infinite" on card draw and life gain.


I think Pierre was just trying to point out how many do nothings are out there which let a player pop off in a similar way.

That said, my whole point was that this DOESN'T just fit into any Black deck, much like Ad Nauseum- but for entirely different reasons. Cheating mana costs is exceptionally powerful- but this specific type of do-nothing can be particularly punishing to roll out with it's prohibitive manacost- and further, creates deckbuilding constraints which cleaves it's viability over other "Build-a-Bargain" tools. More importantly, though- it doesn't do what Bargain, Necropotence or Necrologia do which also got Griselbrand banned.

It has a very particular type of efficiency, and a very. very large blindspot- especially when compared to tools like As Foretold, Oath of the Druids, or Lurking Predators (one of the closer comparisons, being really honest.) But, similar to how LP plays out with most Fireball-With-Legs hydras, Exsanguinate and Profane Command (among others,) is super awkward- while Decree of Pain, Promise of Power, and other high manacost utilities which reward robust mana a'la Cabal Coffers and friends are awkward in a different way- incidental lifegain or none.

This card is powerful, and cool- but it has a steep opportunity cost like Null Profusion which has to be respected. The top fixing that is entirely incidental, but even with Scroll Rack and Top, if the plan is to pop off when this comes down, a player would reasonably want to make as few of the awkward cards be in their deck as possible in the first place. I think that the analysis here falls into Rhystic Study-syndrome; where it assumes too much about a card's potential over it's baseline. But the reality of EDH, is that you're playing against 3 other people- and a card with high potential action is more normal here than anywhere else in MtG.

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 Post subject: Re: Bolas's Citadel is more broken than yawg's bargain.
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-15 5:18 am 
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Just ban every card that does anything honestly.


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