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 Post subject: Interesting question regarding The Great Aurora & Tokens
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-27 11:59 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Reference: The Great Aurora

Setup: I have 4 cards in hand, 9 lands in play, and 40 Treasure tokens (or Soldier tokens, or whatever). I have 20 cards in my library.

I cast The Great Aurora. What happens?

My initial thought is I shuffle my hand and lands into my library, try to draw 53 cards from my 33 card library, and lose the game.

However on further thought it's not as simple as that. The Treasure tokens are permanents, and The Great Aurora shuffles all my permanents into my library. "Aha!" you are no doubt saying, "tokens cease to exist any time they're not on the battlefield!"

You're right, except that annihilation only takes place as a state based action (specifically rule 704.5d) and state based actions are not checked in the middle of a spell resolving - they are only checked immediately before any player gets priority. In the middle of The Great Aurora resolving, they do continue to exist.

On the other other hand, The Great Aurora says to draw "that many cards" and tokens are not cards (by the definition of the term).

The obvious common sense answer here is the tokens cease to exist when they're shuffled into the library and I lose by decking myself. However, I can't see where in the rules this is actually supported.

There is an Oracle ruling on The Great Aurora which suggests this is what happens as well, but again, the rules don't actually support that ruling.

Sheldon or Toby (or any other judges out there), can you confirm what happens?

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting question regarding The Great Aurora & Tokens
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-28 12:52 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
The state based action for losing from decking yourself is:

Quote:
704.5b If a player attempted to draw a card from a library with no cards in it since the last time state-based actions were checked, that player loses the game.


It's not “an empty library”, as I suspect you're thinking it says. It's “a library with no cards in it”.

As you note, The Great Aurora forces you to draw cards from your library until you reach a point where there are definitely no cards left but you still have to draw at least one more card. You do have tokens in there, but they're not cards as you note, so we simply don't consider them. This means you lose next time SBAs are checked.

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting question regarding The Great Aurora & Tokens
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-28 2:18 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
spacemonaut wrote:
The state based action for losing from decking yourself is:

Quote:
704.5b If a player attempted to draw a card from a library with no cards in it since the last time state-based actions were checked, that player loses the game.


It's not “an empty library”, as I suspect you're thinking it says. It's “a library with no cards in it”.

As you note, The Great Aurora forces you to draw cards from your library until you reach a point where there are definitely no cards left but you still have to draw at least one more card. You do have tokens in there, but they're not cards as you note, so we simply don't consider them. This means you lose next time SBAs are checked.

In other words, you can't attempt to draw tokens from the library, as they are not cards. You will draw all the real cards and then lose.

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