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 Post subject: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-18 11:38 pm 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
Firstly, the format has recently received a lot of tools to protect from problematic cards that exist thanks to recent blocks and some darn good ones, assassins trophy, damping sphere, field of ruin and new walkers with cool static abilities. That being said I think we have answers for something things that were previously considered bannable. New tamiyo fights off hand disruption and sacrificing effects Very Well, in a set that answers the crap out of walkers with despark and elderspell(2mana Walker board wipe WHAT?!)


Secondly, I want to use these powerful hose effects against powerful decks. I'd love to resolve a tamiyo in a braids canal minions face. Or field of ruin a geaes cradle and be like "das a nice furresst you got dere" Im not saying we unban everything, but I'd love to revisit the idea of the ban list and see how much actually doesnt need to be banned anymore.

Specifically Braids, bring braids back.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 1:44 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
No.

If you want something unbanned, then give us reasons on what's changed since it was banned.

In the case of Braids, nothing has done to give players a bunch of tools to help against it -- all we have (that comes to mind) is a couple new cards that cost 5 each. And anyone not playing those colours is just out of luck and going to have a miserable game because of it.

Also, your reasoning for wanting to bring Braids back is to create just as miserable experience as Braids gives. Because it sounds like you want it back simply so you can in turn say "ha ha! you don't get to have a fun game experience because of one card" ... which is pretty close to the same reason Braids is banned in the first place. Which means to me, you want it unbanned to create even more bad game experiences than she will bring back on her own. Sounds like a resounding reason to keep her banned.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 6:00 am 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
First, who are you to say what is and isnt fun?
Second, I did point out that now braids has a hard answer in new tamiyo. New tamiyo literally says you cannot be made to sacrifice permanents. How does this in anyway NOT affect the braids playstyle. Cost 4 cmc and is in a commonly played color pair GU. Which slots right into a thrasios/x deck and easily shuts down a sacrifice style prison deck.
Third, if we did ban things by your estimation of "fun" why do things like anwonon and sheoldred exist? Both are mono black sacrifice prison decks and I'd argue that sheoldred is far more toxic than braids and the sac effect is one sided and the player gets a reanimate every turn. But that's ok and braids is toxic? Nah , sounds like you just dont like controlling prison style decks.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 6:40 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
Nope.

Even if* the Tamiyo protects you from Braids, it still creates an undesirable board state for everyone else at the table.

*Big if, considering Braids is in the command zone and powered out quicker than Tamiyo via Dark Ritual and Bubbling Muck.

What blue or green card tutors for Tamiyo, anyway? Wargate? Planar Portal?

And if you're in one of the, what, 25 (?) color combinations without access to both blue and green, you're out of luck.

Long story short, nothing is banned because it is unanswerable. Braids is banned because it creates undesirable game states. A singular answer does not change that.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 7:33 am 
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RonB wrote:
First, who are you to say what is and isnt fun?

While fun is subjective, there are some objective constants that run through the majority of players. (black) Braids runs against most people's concept of fun, as she is very good at preventing people from playing the format as it is intended to be played & enjoyed.

As for your 'hard' answer -- that is ONE card. So, in some games you may find it, other games not. And only exists if you are playing the right colour combinations. Vs a card that is your commander, thus always available when you have the mana for it. One card that only a few decks can play is not enough of a shift in the metagame to allow for the misery that Braids causes

And, I'd like to point out that i already countered that argument in my original post. So, if you really do want to have a debate about this, perhaps you should read what people say, and not just claim that people aren't ready what you said. I did acknowledge what you said and I provided further reason why that's not enough. You could perhaps be courteous enough to return that minimum of respect.

As for your 3rd argument -- because "sacrifice a creature" isn't nearly as strong as "sacrifice a permanent" when it's a continuously triggering effect. Their abilities aren't on par with each other. And if you think they are the same, then why don't you play those? Or use the new Tamiyo to counter those creatures? Why do you need Braids to play against? Honestly, it seems like you don't have experience playing against a tuned Braids deck. And your other arguments seem to actually weaken your position.

So, other than you wanting to "stick it to them" -- why would you want Braids in the format (since you specifically propose that?)

Also, you say "I want to use these powerful hose effects against powerful decks. I'd love to ... field of ruin a geaes cradle." -- so, why don't you go do that? Both those cards are legal. Which, for the record, also weakens any bid you make for changes to the ban list, as you don't seem to have done your research about many things.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 7:45 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RonB wrote:
First, who are you to say what is and isnt fun?

Who are you to say what is and is not? It's rather rude that you, a new poster, is dismissing the opinions of someone who's been posting here for years.
Also, it is not just his point of view, but the reasoning behind Braids being banned in the first place. So, you're questioning the RC here, as well.

RonB wrote:
Second, I did point out that now braids has a hard answer in new tamiyo. New tamiyo literally says you cannot be made to sacrifice permanents. How does this in anyway NOT affect the braids playstyle.

Less than 3% of my current decks can run Tamiyo. So, in about 97-98% of my games, it is impossible for her to affect the Braids playstyle. And, of course, that's based on me actually getting Tamiyo and being able to keep her on the field, whereas Braids is in the CZ so pretty much always available.

RonB wrote:
Third, if we did ban things by your estimation of "fun" why do things like anwonon and sheoldred exist?

Every upkeep vs. yours only. I can board wipe / O-Ring / drop in sac fodder before it hits their upkeep on the other two. If I don't have an answer, I'm safe as long as anyone else at the table does. With Braids, unless someone takes it out before my turn, I'm SOL.
Also, creatures-only vs. other permanents including land - this easily leads to easily locking people 100% out of the game by putting them to zero lands and holding them there.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:15 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sigarda, Host of Herons and Tajuru Preserver both predate new Tamiyo by almost a decade, and both are far better at stopping a Braids lock. Tamiyo is utterly irrelevant to whether or not Braids should be banned or not.

Heck, she's not even the most efficient Braids counter in War of the Spark, since we got Dreadhorde Invasion to eat up the sac trigger turn after turn.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:17 am 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
I use braids and geaes cradle as examples of strong cards, subjectively. Whether braids should be unbanned or not isnt up to me. Yes I would prefer to play as or against braids. But that's not the point I was initially trying to make. I think we should reconsider the ban list.

So I'll restructure my statement.

I'd personally prefer if braids was playable, because I believe she isnt as overpowering as other do. That being said I think the ban list as a whole is outdated but maintained because of a vocal few who find certain cards or playstyles distasteful(kind of like how Jace the mind sculptor was unbanned in modern and a few people cried "the sky is falling"). Now that doesnt mean that I think everything should be unbanned,just re-evaluated. I'll use a better example than braids because Clearly she has rubbed some salt into a few wounds. Ancestral Recall one blue draw three. Is that Honestly going to blow a game into pieces? On an isochron scepter even? Sure it's good but more often than not plenty of decks have fantastic draw engines that dont care, or have better things to do with iso scepter such as dramatic reversal into infinite combo win. And it's not even strictly better than other 1 mana cantrips let's look at brainstorm it allows you to protect important cards from hand disruption, or faithless looting let's you set up grave synergies, twice. Even ponder let's you shuffle away dead top decks.

While flipside of the coin time walk should probably never be unbanned, because obviously.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:25 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RonB wrote:
I'd personally prefer if braids was playable, because I believe she isnt as overpowering as other do.
You are, objectively, wrong.

RonB wrote:
That being said I think the ban list as a whole is outdated but maintained because of a vocal few who find certain cards or playstyles distasteful.
Again, you are objectively wrong.

RonB wrote:
Ancestral Recall one blue draw three. Is that Honestly going to blow a game into pieces?
Okay, I touched on this before -- but obviously you didn't get the message. Go. Do. Research. If any of your arguments actually touched on the reason Ancestral was banned, then I wouldn't be saying this as much, but you obviously haven't done any research on the matter. All you've done is come here and spew out your thoughts and desires, and your thoughts are not well thought out.

I Highly suggest you go do some research before spewing out baseless ideas. As that is what's rubbed people the wrong way (not Braids) - you come here, acting as if you know better than those who have come before you with no knowledge of the history or intent of the format. We are quite welcoming of new people -- but "I know better than you" attitudes without knowledge to back it up isn't particularly tolerated here.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:37 am 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
So according to you, my opinion is wrong because I don't agree with you. I'm glad we have open discussions about the a format we play. My time in this site shows me exactly what the issues are, clearly they aren't the cards, it's the archaic attitude. -you dont agree with me and have an opinion if change?!? Therefore your OPINION must be wrong- and that this is the reaction we have to people voicing an opinion. I'm deeply disappointed in the absolute lack of open discussions and straight up insults because I've done plenty of research. But how dare I believe powerful cards shouldn't be banned.
If your an example of the individuals of this website I have little desire to be involved here.
As someone pointed out before you've been here for years. If a new opinion shows up in the future be open to discussion. Dont be a naysayer shutting down discussions with insults. Maybe it's ok to have some stronger cards.
I hope the rules committee isnt as close minded as you are.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:44 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The main implication of the whole argument seems to be the assumption that the banlist is never re-evaluated and nobody ever discusses whether the cards on them still belong, or playtests with banned cards to see how they function, or anything like that. Nobody wants cards banned because of a rational consideration of whether or not the format is better with them in it, it's just a bunch of salty idiots who don't like certain cards and are ruining the fun for the rest of us.

That assumption is wrong on every level. The banlist and which cards do or don't belong is a constant source of discussion, both here and on other EDH/Commander forums. The Rules Committee itself occasionally even participates in those discussions. And a new branch to the committee was added specifically for the purpose of presenting a fresh look at how the format is being run.

Seriously, type the name of any banned card in the search bar and you'll find dozens if not hundreds of pages from multiple threads all discussing whether or not to unban it, and all of the various points on each side. This also applies to contentious-but-legal cards like Sol Ring or Vorinclex, as well as previously banned cards like Kokusho and Staff of Domination.

RonB wrote:
opinion... opinion... OPINION... opinion... opinion

In the real, mature world, nobody cares about opinions. Not your opinion, or anyone else's. They care about your argument, which is a fancy way of saying your attempt to show that your opinion is in fact a good one. If your opinion is in fact right, there should be a way to show it, and upon showing it you would then be able to convince people.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:50 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RonB wrote:
So according to you, my opinion is wrong because I don't agree with you.
Congrats on demonstrating that you're not giving anyone here any respect.

Your opinion is wrong, because you don't understand why the format (banned cards for example) is the way it currently is. As such your arguments on how to change it don't have anything to do with why it is the current way.

It's like arguing that the speed limit on highways should be higher because cars have automatic locks. While they are vaguely related, the fact that they have automatic locks or not is not related to why the speed limits are what they are.

And for the record, I'm trying to have a discussion with you, but you're ignoring what I'm saying and demonstrating yourself as someone who has no respect for others.

RonB wrote:
I'm deeply disappointed in the absolute lack of open discussions and straight up insults because I've done plenty of research. But how dare I believe powerful cards shouldn't be banned.
Had you done even just a little bit of research, you could have easily found that Ancestral isn't banned due to power level. So again, you demonstrate your lack of knowledge and again demonstrate further lack of respect for those who have grown the format into the popular format that it currently is (the RC, not me before you think I'm full of myself.)

RonB wrote:
I hope the rules committee isnt as close minded as you are.
I honestly don't know what this is? Ad Hominem? Strawman? Begging the Question? Seems like you have multiple logical fallacies in this one statement. Congratulations on that at least.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 9:02 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Hi Ron, and welcome to the forums. I'll try to hit everything up to this point and maybe you'll see where we are coming from.

First off, you have to understand that every month we get a couple of new users whose first post is "I want the RC to do X" without putting much thought or explanation into it. And invariably the answer is going to be no, because us old times have done this same song and dance for years, quite often discussing it WITH THE RULES COMMITTEE. So when some of us speak, it is with some degree of authority. Of course, no one should expect you to know that, or expect you to go read through a dozen threads before you post. But what we do expect, is that you (and everyone else in this situation) actually listen to what we say rather than get defensive. And admittedly, this cam be difficult when you're met with snark and an attitude. Some people are just like that.

Secondly, if you have a thought, make it a complete one. You specifically mentioned Braids, so of course we are going to respond with Braids.

Lastly, the RC is indeed a very open-minded bunch, as are a number of users here. If you give this forum a chance you'll see that. If you choose to leave, well sorry that you didn't give it a chance.

Anyway, to actually respond to you:

The RC wants a format where people get to play the game, not become spectators. Braids was a very linear playstyle where you got her out as soon as you could with some sac fodder, and if you built your deck right, no one got creatures. In the 99, she wasn't that bad because you had to draw into her first. With the BaaC gone, every potential commander needs to be evaluated at their worst, that is, that they will lead a deck built to maximize their abilities. Now, you can.make the argument that sac protection has gotten better (it barely has), and you can also argue that playstyles that are less reliant on creatures have gotten better, or even just that removal in general has gotten better. And then we can discuss that.

Ancestal Recall is firmly banned because of Perceived Barrier to Entry, and has nothing to do with it being the best draw spell in Magic (well actually the fact that it's the best and also Power 9 is why it's banned). If it was as common as Brainstorm they it would probably be legal, but its it's not. H9wever, the fact that it's PBtE banned is what the other user was.correcting you on.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 9:11 am 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
cryogen wrote:
Hi Ron, and welcome to the forums. I'll try to hit everything up to this point and maybe you'll see where we are coming from.

First off, you have to understand that every month we get a couple of new users whose first post is "I want the RC to do X" without putting much thought or explanation into it. And invariably the answer is going to be no, because us old times have done this same song and dance for years, quite often discussing it WITH THE RULES COMMITTEE. So when some of us speak, it is with some degree of authority. Of course, no one should expect you to know that, or expect you to go read through a dozen threads before you post. But what we do expect, is that you (and everyone else in this situation) actually listen to what we say rather than get defensive. And admittedly, this cam be difficult when you're met with snark and an attitude. Some people are just like that.

Secondly, if you have a thought, make it a complete one. You specifically mentioned Braids, so of course we are going to respond with Braids.

Lastly, the RC is indeed a very open-minded bunch, as are a number of users here. If you give this forum a chance you'll see that. If you choose to leave, well sorry that you didn't give it a chance.

Anyway, to actually respond to you:

The RC wants a format where people get to play the game, not become spectators. Braids was a very linear playstyle where you got her out as soon as you could with some sac fodder, and if you built your deck right, no one got creatures. In the 99, she wasn't that bad because you had to draw into her first. With the BaaC gone, every potential commander needs to be evaluated at their worst, that is, that they will lead a deck built to maximize their abilities. Now, you can.make the argument that sac protection has gotten better (it barely has), and you can also argue that playstyles that are less reliant on creatures have gotten better, or even just that removal in general has gotten better. And then we can discuss that.

Ancestal Recall is firmly banned because of Perceived Barrier to Entry, and has nothing to do with it being the best draw spell in Magic (well actually the fact that it's the best and also Power 9 is why it's banned). If it was as common as Brainstorm they it would probably be legal, but its it's not. H9wever, the fact that it's PBtE banned is what the other user was.correcting you on.





Omg I get to speak to a reasonable human today! Thank you for your reasonable response not laden with immediate insults and aggression. I appreciate your time and apologize for the disruption. I get defensive when people come at me with no provocation. I personally wanted open discussion about the ban list and Assumed this would be a good place for that. Clearly I was wrong. I have demands on re evaluation. But this doesnt mean old established members should insult and attack new members for having a different viewpoint.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 9:38 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This is actually the BEST place to talk about the banlist, because this site is completely owned and operated by the Commander Rules Committee. But people like Carthain, Uktabi Kong, Willbender, and myself have been around for a minute, and we aren't going to steer you wrong. I agree that you shouldn't be attacked right off the bat, but this is the internet and sometimes these things happen (not that I'm trying to normalize or defend this behavior).


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