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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-01 1:59 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
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Inkeyes22 wrote:
I sadly do not have any new ideas or anything to contribute to the idea but Recurring Nightmare, Tinker and Gifts Ungiven being unbanned might be what we need to get people to run more graveyard hate/pruning or counterspells.

I think this is a really bad idea. Unbanning cards to encourage people to run more answer-heavy decks doesn't seem ideal. Furthermore, if you get one of those cards early, it's very likely that you can simply cut underneath your opponents' answers, either because they haven't drawn them or they don't yet have the mana to use them. EDH has long been a format about haymakers, but (outside of cEDH) it's probably a bad idea to have haymakers that go off turn 1 in the format, and plays like Island, Mana Crypt, Tinker -> Blightsteel Colossus are a very real possibility, that can only be answered by a handful of cards. I don't think that's good for the format. Even if you have to wait til turn 3, that's an extremely difficult play to beat. And we already know the RC would rather not ban all the cards that would break the game if you Tinker them out that would otherwise be (relatively) OK.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-01 6:59 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
I don't know if this is what posterchild means though.

Well, it absolutely IS.

I know what the definition is, i disagree that it's an example.

If this *was* the place for "that kind of stuff" - Braids and Erayo would still be banned. They are oppressive and extremely high power, is my point.

Banning Braids and Erayo doesn't simply mean "This format isn't for stax, piss off jerks!".

Thraximundar wrote:
As for ancestral recall the card is broken in half and a game can be determined based on who got to cast theirs off and won fastest. I would suggest looking at the vintage one ofs list and legacy bans to understand the power of these cards. CEDH decks would be able to go off on turn 1/2 with that card in play.

We already do because of Flash-Hulk and Necro and Doomsday and Food Chain and Scepter. Ancestral is broken but if i could only have one of these cards in my deck, Ancestral wouldn't be my first choice.

Thraximundar wrote:
An example of a hand that wins the game on turn 1 would be elvish spirt guide, mana crypt, tundra, lions eye diamond, brainstorm, Auriok Salvagers, and a force of will because why not.

You cast Ancestral before Brainstorm, duh :)
(i promise this is lighthearted ribbing)

Thraximundar wrote:
Play tundra, mana crypt, lions eye diamond. Brainstorm you Auriok Salvagers and force of will away.
Next crack the lions eye diamond for white and exile the elvish sprit guide for an extra green put ancestral recall on the stack. Lions eye makes you discard the last one card in you hand if you have any. Ancestral recall resolves draws you three cards, two of which are blue spells. Cast Auriok Salvagers. Go off next turn and kill your opponents. If you make force of will and the other two avaible cards more fast ramp you kill them that turn.

All of these cards are played saved for ancestral recall.

You don't pass the turn with an empty hand, that's bad. You also haven't created a win condition in your example but we get you.

Also, i have won with Mana Crypt, land, Flash, and Summoner's Pact on turn one. That's 4 cards and there are too many that can replace Crypt :) With all the 1 mana and top deck tutors the average goldfish of FlashHulk clocks in at just a few turns.

I'm waiting for the day i will get to be on the draw and Gemstone Caverns Elvish Spirit Guide my Flash on the first player's upkeep before they draw a card.

cryogen wrote:
I can count on one hand the number of people at my LGS who own all those cards. Recall is a broken card by game design standards, but it's not going to define games except at the highest of cEDH tiers, and who cares about that? Without exaggeration, I would rather my opponents have a turn 1 Recall than Sol Sol Ring.

100%!

I wouldn't advocate unbanning Recall but drawing 3 for cheap just isn't as powerful. It's stupidly bonkers. But doesn't ramp you the same in a format of 6 drops as it does in vintage (with missteps and moxes and the extremely low mana curve).


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-02 1:35 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Wyvern
cryogen wrote:
I can count on one hand the number of people at my LGS who own all those cards. Recall is a broken card by game design standards, but it's not going to define games except at the highest of cEDH tiers, and who cares about that? Without exaggeration, I would rather my opponents have a turn 1 Recall than Sol Sol Ring.



So to stay away or separate edh from cEDH we’ve done a ban on infinite’s. I mentioned it on the forum I’ve posted with how I feel the format is moving after playing it for a decade. Basically if you have an early infinite and kill everyone you are the winner and we play the rest of the game without you.

We also banned sol ring when it comes to ‘tuned’ or ‘optimized’ list. It’s made our games go from ending on turn 6 or 7 to ending on turn 9 or 10 which is a huge pace change.

Also unbanned Griselbrand and reoccuring nightmare. So far there hasn’t been any issues with these cards and it’s likely going to stay unbanned in our group.

I feel like ancestral recall shouldn’t be unbanned based on the reasoning ‘only a few people have it’. It should be banned based on what the card does and giving you two extra cards for one mana just isn’t something that any card can really replicate without using something else to achieve it.

Of all the power 9 the only one unbanned is time twister. I think if they wanted to be clear on the powerlevel of those cards they could ban it and there wouldn’t be hypocrisy of why part of power 9 in unbanned and the rest is fine.

I use the legacy and vintage list as an example of what overpowered cards look like, but at the end of the day everyone is responsible for what they want to play and the other people in your playgroup will choose what is good or bad for themselves. I think of the RCs rules as a guideline or suggestion box for starting players in the format. If you fee ancestral recall is fine proxy one up and find how fast people start playing ricochet trap

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-02 12:52 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Thraximundar wrote:
Of all the power 9 the only one unbanned is time twister. I think if they wanted to be clear on the powerlevel of those cards they could ban it and there wouldn’t be hypocrisy of why part of power 9 in unbanned and the rest is fine.

Where is the hypocrisy? If all the cards were the same variations of each other, then sure perhaps. But as Timetwister does something vastly different than the other power 9, why should it automatically be treated the same as the others?

Keep in mind, that twister is pretty much agreed upon as being the weakest of the power 9. When I was playing Vintage, I recall people talking about how it doesn't deserve to be part of the power 9, and which cards would be a better 9th card for the Power 9.

It's pretty clear that the RC valuates every card on it's own to see if it deserves to be banned or not. Otherwise, we'd have things like Grave Titan banned simply because Primeval Titan is banned (which hasn't happened at all.)

Calling it hypocrisy simply because it's part of a group where others in the group are banned is extremely short-sighted.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-02 1:44 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah, Timetwister is primarily on the P9 list because of how powerful it is if you can T1 it (which the rest of the P9 makes fairly easy). With the P8 banned its power level drops significantly. Moving it to a 100 card format from a 60 also drops its power level, as it becomes increasingly likely to show up later when it's less disruptive.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-02 2:10 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
There's also the fact that its power is severely decreased by the nature of the multiplayer format. In 60-card land, Timetwister gave you seven cards and your opposition seven cards. In EDH, it gives you 7 cards and your opposition anywhere from 7-35 cards.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-03 4:17 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Wyvern
Willbender wrote:
Yeah, Timetwister is primarily on the P9 list because of how powerful it is if you can T1 it (which the rest of the P9 makes fairly easy). With the P8 banned its power level drops significantly. Moving it to a 100 card format from a 60 also drops its power level, as it becomes increasingly likely to show up later when it's less disruptive.


This was probably the best answer given to why it’s not banned. The rest of you can learn a lot from the way this person addresses someone without belittling them.

If anything it’s an example of a card few people can get but isn’t banned in the overall format. I think I’m warming up to ancestral recall because I guess you could make the same case for it. However really just sounds like the people who would like these cards unbanned should just be playing Canadian highlander.

All in all I don’t play cEDH or vintage only legacy and casual edh. So if it isn’t obvious that I’m talking form that prospective of the game. I wouldn’t be too happy if someone resolved a proxie or even a real ancestral recall, but that’s me.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-03 4:26 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I just want PBtE done away with so I can play Library outside of my cube. Recall would be nice but no way in hell am I spending that kind of money for just another draw spell.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-03 5:22 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
I just want PBtE done away with so I can play Library outside of my cube. Recall would be nice but no way in hell am I spending that kind of money for just another draw spell.
Ancestral Recall is never getting unbanned. It's one of the top 3 most powerful cards ever made in Magic, with Black Lotus and Time Walk being the other two. The card advantage it gets you for a single mana is too good, and unlike Lotus it stays as good (or better) as the game goes on.

Library of Alexandria is a little more realistic, but there have been several threads on it in the past, and it's not on there just because of PBtE.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-03 5:47 am 
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Thraximundar wrote:
The rest of you can learn a lot from the way this person addresses someone without belittling them.
You can start by not staging your supposition as being one where those in charge are doing something erratic and using negative terms to describe it. Don't go throwing around a 'holier-than-thou' attitude after you started off being belligerent.

You can't go around saying those in charge are hypocrites and then be amazed when someone is gruff with you when they call you out on it. The gall of your comment there is simply amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-03 6:13 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Wyvern
Carthain wrote:
Thraximundar wrote:
The rest of you can learn a lot from the way this person addresses someone without belittling them.
You can start by not staging your supposition as being one where those in charge are doing something erratic and using negative terms to describe it. Don't go throwing around a 'holier-than-thou' attitude after you started off being belligerent.

You can't go around saying those in charge are hypocrites and then be amazed when someone is gruff with you when they call you out on it. The gall of your comment there is simply amazing.


Seems hypocritical to me.

Is that better or you really like shouting into the void because someone doesn’t hold the same opinion as you?

Sorry if that wasn’t implied, but don’t go putting intent where it isn’t founded. I don’t try to mix your words around to suit my argument. You should probably steer clear of doing that because it doesn’t help the conversation at hand instead it makes it messy and confusing.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-03 6:35 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Thraximundar wrote:
Sorry if that wasn’t implied, but don’t go putting intent where it isn’t founded.
Then you really need to be clear about what you're saying. When talking in person with people, you have multiple things to help you communicate (body language, tone of voice) besides just what you are saying. In a text-only environment, you don't have those so you need to be more precise about what you're saying, and that includes the tone in which you write. Also, that's like using a racially charged word and then telling people whom it offends that it's not racist simply because you didn't intend it that way. That isn't how things work out.

I'm not mixing any words around. I'm basing everything solely on what you wrote -- as I don't have anything else to base it on.

Calling someone a hypocrite (or their actions as hypocritical) is a negative term, so you started in this thread by being hostile. Then you come back and try to tell people off for calling you out on it?

You had a few ways you could have responded to my post that would have been just fine. A "perhaps I used the wrong word" would have been fine, or even an earlier "that was just my opinion, sorry I didn't make that clear." Instead, you tried to berate people based on tone --- who were responding to your initial tone.

And then take a look at my reply -- it may have been gruff, or aggressive, but I go over how it isn't hypocritical -- and you still seem to hold that it is your opinion so. Perhaps you'd like to actually support your opinion how it is so, instead of trying to look like you're the mature person in this back and forth?

So here's my summary of what happened:
* You make a claim
* I object to it (partly to the tone, but also to the content of it) and put forth reasons why it isn't so
* You ignore any of it and try to attack me.

Would you care to make any reply of substance, or will you try to just discredit me some more with logical fallacies?


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-03 8:09 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Thraximundar wrote:
Seems hypocritical to me.
Is that better or you really like shouting into the void because someone doesn’t hold the same opinion as you?

Do you honestly not see that as exactly what you are, and have been in many threads, doing?

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-03 9:52 am 
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Thraximundar wrote:
This was probably the best answer given to why it’s not banned. The rest of you can learn a lot from the way this person addresses someone without belittling them.

3 people responded to your post. None of them belittled you. Carthain made a couple comments that attack the legitimacy of your argument/statement, but that's not the same thing as belittling YOU.

Imagine I post in the forum something ludicrous, like "The sky is plaid".
Poster A says "Um, no, that's clearly wrong and completely ludicrous". Poster B says "Sid, you're a mouth-breathing imbecile unfit to post on these boards". What A said is completely acceptable. What B did is not.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-04 4:34 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-04 3:43 pm
Age: Hatchling
Now that we have a card like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is Rofellos still ban worthy?

Rofellos is more consistent and can drop onto an empty board and look to provide a large impact but it can't be nearly as explosive out of the gate as Selvala and Selvala has built in card draw.


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