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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - let's talk unbanning.

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 Post subject: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-18 11:38 pm 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
Firstly, the format has recently received a lot of tools to protect from problematic cards that exist thanks to recent blocks and some darn good ones, assassins trophy, damping sphere, field of ruin and new walkers with cool static abilities. That being said I think we have answers for something things that were previously considered bannable. New tamiyo fights off hand disruption and sacrificing effects Very Well, in a set that answers the crap out of walkers with despark and elderspell(2mana Walker board wipe WHAT?!)


Secondly, I want to use these powerful hose effects against powerful decks. I'd love to resolve a tamiyo in a braids canal minions face. Or field of ruin a geaes cradle and be like "das a nice furresst you got dere" Im not saying we unban everything, but I'd love to revisit the idea of the ban list and see how much actually doesnt need to be banned anymore.

Specifically Braids, bring braids back.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 1:44 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
No.

If you want something unbanned, then give us reasons on what's changed since it was banned.

In the case of Braids, nothing has done to give players a bunch of tools to help against it -- all we have (that comes to mind) is a couple new cards that cost 5 each. And anyone not playing those colours is just out of luck and going to have a miserable game because of it.

Also, your reasoning for wanting to bring Braids back is to create just as miserable experience as Braids gives. Because it sounds like you want it back simply so you can in turn say "ha ha! you don't get to have a fun game experience because of one card" ... which is pretty close to the same reason Braids is banned in the first place. Which means to me, you want it unbanned to create even more bad game experiences than she will bring back on her own. Sounds like a resounding reason to keep her banned.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 6:00 am 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
First, who are you to say what is and isnt fun?
Second, I did point out that now braids has a hard answer in new tamiyo. New tamiyo literally says you cannot be made to sacrifice permanents. How does this in anyway NOT affect the braids playstyle. Cost 4 cmc and is in a commonly played color pair GU. Which slots right into a thrasios/x deck and easily shuts down a sacrifice style prison deck.
Third, if we did ban things by your estimation of "fun" why do things like anwonon and sheoldred exist? Both are mono black sacrifice prison decks and I'd argue that sheoldred is far more toxic than braids and the sac effect is one sided and the player gets a reanimate every turn. But that's ok and braids is toxic? Nah , sounds like you just dont like controlling prison style decks.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 6:40 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
Nope.

Even if* the Tamiyo protects you from Braids, it still creates an undesirable board state for everyone else at the table.

*Big if, considering Braids is in the command zone and powered out quicker than Tamiyo via and .

What blue or green card tutors for Tamiyo, anyway? ? ?

And if you're in one of the, what, 25 (?) color combinations without access to both blue and green, you're out of luck.

Long story short, nothing is banned because it is unanswerable. Braids is banned because it creates undesirable game states. A singular answer does not change that.

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 7:33 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 7:45 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon

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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:15 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
and both predate new Tamiyo by almost a decade, and both are far better at stopping a Braids lock. Tamiyo is utterly irrelevant to whether or not Braids should be banned or not.

Heck, she's not even the most efficient Braids counter in War of the Spark, since we got to eat up the sac trigger turn after turn.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:17 am 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
I use braids and geaes cradle as examples of strong cards, subjectively. Whether braids should be unbanned or not isnt up to me. Yes I would prefer to play as or against braids. But that's not the point I was initially trying to make. I think we should reconsider the ban list.

So I'll restructure my statement.

I'd personally prefer if braids was playable, because I believe she isnt as overpowering as other do. That being said I think the ban list as a whole is outdated but maintained because of a vocal few who find certain cards or playstyles distasteful(kind of like how Jace the mind sculptor was unbanned in modern and a few people cried "the sky is falling"). Now that doesnt mean that I think everything should be unbanned,just re-evaluated. I'll use a better example than braids because Clearly she has rubbed some salt into a few wounds. Ancestral Recall one blue draw three. Is that Honestly going to blow a game into pieces? On an isochron scepter even? Sure it's good but more often than not plenty of decks have fantastic draw engines that dont care, or have better things to do with iso scepter such as dramatic reversal into infinite combo win. And it's not even strictly better than other 1 mana cantrips let's look at brainstorm it allows you to protect important cards from hand disruption, or faithless looting let's you set up grave synergies, twice. Even ponder let's you shuffle away dead top decks.

While flipside of the coin time walk should probably never be unbanned, because obviously.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:25 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:37 am 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
So according to you, my opinion is wrong because I don't agree with you. I'm glad we have open discussions about the a format we play. My time in this site shows me exactly what the issues are, clearly they aren't the cards, it's the archaic attitude. -you dont agree with me and have an opinion if change?!? Therefore your OPINION must be wrong- and that this is the reaction we have to people voicing an opinion. I'm deeply disappointed in the absolute lack of open discussions and straight up insults because I've done plenty of research. But how dare I believe powerful cards shouldn't be banned.
If your an example of the individuals of this website I have little desire to be involved here.
As someone pointed out before you've been here for years. If a new opinion shows up in the future be open to discussion. Dont be a naysayer shutting down discussions with insults. Maybe it's ok to have some stronger cards.
I hope the rules committee isnt as close minded as you are.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:44 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 8:50 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 9:02 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Hi Ron, and welcome to the forums. I'll try to hit everything up to this point and maybe you'll see where we are coming from.

First off, you have to understand that every month we get a couple of new users whose first post is "I want the RC to do X" without putting much thought or explanation into it. And invariably the answer is going to be no, because us old times have done this same song and dance for years, quite often discussing it WITH THE RULES COMMITTEE. So when some of us speak, it is with some degree of authority. Of course, no one should expect you to know that, or expect you to go read through a dozen threads before you post. But what we do expect, is that you (and everyone else in this situation) actually listen to what we say rather than get defensive. And admittedly, this cam be difficult when you're met with snark and an attitude. Some people are just like that.

Secondly, if you have a thought, make it a complete one. You specifically mentioned Braids, so of course we are going to respond with Braids.

Lastly, the RC is indeed a very open-minded bunch, as are a number of users here. If you give this forum a chance you'll see that. If you choose to leave, well sorry that you didn't give it a chance.

Anyway, to actually respond to you:

The RC wants a format where people get to play the game, not become spectators. Braids was a very linear playstyle where you got her out as soon as you could with some sac fodder, and if you built your deck right, no one got creatures. In the 99, she wasn't that bad because you had to draw into her first. With the BaaC gone, every potential commander needs to be evaluated at their worst, that is, that they will lead a deck built to maximize their abilities. Now, you can.make the argument that sac protection has gotten better (it barely has), and you can also argue that playstyles that are less reliant on creatures have gotten better, or even just that removal in general has gotten better. And then we can discuss that.

Ancestal Recall is firmly banned because of Perceived Barrier to Entry, and has nothing to do with it being the best draw spell in Magic (well actually the fact that it's the best and also Power 9 is why it's banned). If it was as common as Brainstorm they it would probably be legal, but its it's not. H9wever, the fact that it's PBtE banned is what the other user was.correcting you on.


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 9:11 am 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern


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 Post subject: Re: let's talk unbanning.
AgePosted: 2019-May-19 9:38 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This is actually the BEST place to talk about the banlist, because this site is completely owned and operated by the Commander Rules Committee. But people like Carthain, Uktabi Kong, Willbender, and myself have been around for a minute, and we aren't going to steer you wrong. I agree that you shouldn't be attacked right off the bat, but this is the internet and sometimes these things happen (not that I'm trying to normalize or defend this behavior).


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