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 Post subject: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 6:30 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
The justification for keeping this card banned is just plain silly. Commander has far more frustrating and banal ways that games can end. A card that wins the game at sorcery speed and is immediately shut down by anything that can blow up a creature or land or counter a spell is in no way game breaking or unfun to play against. It happens quick and simple and ends the game then and there painlessly if it resolves. Combos where players take 3 extra turns and draw their entire deck just to win off of Lab Maniac and counter anything in their way are far more tedious and boring to play against. Coalition victory is far more flavorful and has more fair counterplay.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 6:40 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It isn't banned because it can quickly end the game - Divine Intervention and something like Vampire Hexmage can also quickly end the game, but you don't see either of those on the ban list.

One of the big problems with Coalition Victory is that one of the things that in a normal game of Magic is hard to set up, is trivial in Commander. And that's having creatures of all 5 colours. In commander, your commander is always available - don't have to hunt through drawing cards to get creatures of all 5 colours. This makes it much easier to fulfill the requirements to win through Coalition Victory.

Another problem is one you came close to -- it isn't that it's a frustrating or banal way to win -- it's that it causes the whole game to come down to a question of "Does anyone have removal or a counterspell?" And the rest of the game up to that point becomes mostly irrelevant. This is the same kind of reasoning that influences the ban status for cards such as Sway the Stars and Worldfire.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 8:27 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
A matter of whether anyone has removal or counterspells often ends up being the case for ANY wincondition regardless. I don’t see it as any more oppressive or unfun than lab maniac combos or getting whacked to death turn 2 by godo+helm of the host. But I am in no way saying those cards should be banned. I just genuinely don’t see coalition victory as any less fun to play against than those decks are. While the setup for coalition victory is easier in commander, I don’t really see it as a game breaker worthy of a ban.

I’d much rather lose because I wasn’t cautious enough to hold on to a removal or counter against coalition victory than lose to a blue combo I countered twice only to be hit by pact of negation and force of will.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 8:29 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Another problem is one you came close to -- it isn't that it's a frustrating or banal way to win -- it's that it causes the whole game to come down to a question of "Does anyone have removal or a counterspell?" And the rest of the game up to that point becomes mostly irrelevant. This is the same kind of reasoning that influences the ban status for cards such as Sway the Stars and Worldfire.
I take issue with that particular argument, unless that is also applied to any multi-card combo. CV must have 4 pieces minimum and resolve to win the game. With that sort of setup and execution "the rest of the game up to that point becomes mostly irrelevant", then we agree. However EDH does not ban for combo anymore. The other cards mentioned don't need setup to make the preceding game irrelevant, they just make things a certain way.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 8:30 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think Carthain's last point is the most salient one; it simply doesn't matter what has happened up until that point in the game; you tap 8 mana, and you win. You could have been way behind all game; doesn't matter. You could have been having an epic back-and-forth battle with the rest of the table; it doesn't matter.

It's just a horribly non-interactive way to win. This is (IMO) the reason Biorhythm is still banned as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 8:36 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
It's just a horribly non-interactive way to win. This is (IMO) the reason Biorhythm is still banned as well.

I find it to be more interactive than other combo decks can be, if only for the fact that you can shut it down with...
1. A counter
2. Any minion or spell that can destroy a land at instant speed
3. Any minion or spell that can destroy or force you to sac a creature at instant speed
4. Any way to phase out a minion
5. Any way to change the color of a minion (and now that feather decks are a thing, people are digging up things like crimson whisps that to exactly that).

No matter what the boardstate is, combos can still pull in clutch and win the game immediately, especially in blue where the immense ability to control your library lands easy ways to get the cards you want and manage counters. I don’t see coalition victory as being any worse. I’m not saying combos should be banned, but if they’re allowed, it’s silly to keep coalition victory banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 9:12 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It's way, way less interactive than - to use one of your examples - a lab man win. There are virtually no moving pieces; you need 3 lands (using OG Duals/Rav Shocks/any other dual land with two land types) and your commander (given you can only play CV in a 5-colour deck), and 8 mana total. All of which you'll have in play anyway, just as part of playing the game.

With Lab Man you need Lab Man, and some way to draw your deck, which involves two or three other pieces all of which need to be found, none of which (often) do anything else.

I'm not explaining the difference very well, but there is a HUGE difference between Coalition Victory and Laboratory Maniac in terms of trying to set up the win.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 9:30 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
I can see valid arguments either way. One thing that makes Coalition Victory’s ban somewhat questionable nowadays is that the card has been banned for so long that it is difficult to tell if it would have the same negative effect as it did back in 2007 (the year it was banned). There’s no question that commander as a format has changed a lot since then. Has it changed enough to the point where Coalition Victory is a reasonable card to unban? It’s hard to say for sure, but I will agree that there are a lot of inconsistencies with the current banlist that might warrant such an idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 9:35 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The difference between coalition victory as a combo and other multi-card combos is that other combos come with set up costs. The reason people here are saying coalition victory is un-interactive is because it is uninteractive on both sides, it's a lazy combo.

Most multi card combo's have markers that clue you in to when the combo is being assembled. When the combo player gets a bit more aggressive with some random minor threats or throws out a mid-level powerful spell for no real reason they're trying to tap you out. When the combo player drops their sac outlet or other known combo piece, when they tutor but dont do anything, these are the markers that they are going to try to win in the next couple of turns.

These are the signs for coalition victory:
1-Playing lands
2-Casting my commander

If I am playing my reaper king scarecrow deck, you have no reason to think I'm about to win the game, so you have no reason to prepare your counterspell, kill spell or wasteland. It's also a card that requires no effort to include. I am going to be playing lands in my deck, so every 5C general automatically should play coalition victory because it's easy wins.

Basically, CV either doe absolutely nothing, or it wins the game on the spot, neither of which are particularly interesting or beneficial to the format.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 9:45 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Carthain wrote:
One of the big problems with Coalition Victory is that one of the things that in a normal game of Magic is hard to set up, is trivial in Commander.

This is the reason it's banned.

Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Worldfire, Sway of the Stars, etc. are made VASTLY more powerful by the EDH ruleset, and are thus banned. "Interacts poorly with the structure of EDH" I think is how the RC defines it, but the bottom line is that things like having a specific creature always available to you changes the calculus of how cards can be used, and sometimes that makes an otherwise OK card... not.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 10:43 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It also creates a miserable experience for anyone playing a 5c deck moving forward. "Playing a stomping Ground? Better strip mine it just in case. Wanna cast your general? Nope, gonna have to counter it."

That said, it's one of the few cards I think could safely come off the list if you were intent on slimming it down. But a banned card should have a strong reason to unban it and CV doesn't add anything to the format except an "I win regardless of everyone else's game state."


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 1:17 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
cryogen wrote:
That said, it's one of the few cards I think could safely come off the list if you were intent on slimming it down. But a banned card should have a strong reason to unban it and CV doesn't add anything to the format except an "I win regardless of everyone else's game state."

A good reason to at least reevaluate it seriously is the fact that it’s been banned for ages and the meta has shifted a lot. Infinite combos are allowed now and create a practically identical “I win regardless of everyone else’s game state,” except that isn’t even true for coalition victory because there are plenty of minions or enchantments that could do something about the WUBRG in question or deal with a land.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 2:42 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm just gonna correct you on a couple of points here:

- Creatures, not minions. This isn't Hearthstone
- Instant speed land destruction is very rare. Off the top of my head I can only think of Wrecking Ball, which of course requires you to be in Black and Red, Beast Within, or Generous Gift. I'm sure there are others but the VAST majority of land destruction is at sorcery speed, which isn't going to help you.

Also, if I have Coalition Victory in hand, I'm not casting it into responses. I'm going to wait until people are tapped out and/or vulnerable.

You keep saying that Lab Man combo is as easy to pull off as CV. It's just not. The issue here is that CV requires you to jump through NO HOOPS except casting your Commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 4:07 pm 
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If Coalition Victory starts people playing land destruction it's safe to say it'd be format warping.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 4:46 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
I'm just gonna correct you on a couple of points here:

- Creatures, not minions. This isn't Hearthstone
- Instant speed land destruction is very rare. Off the top of my head I can only think of Wrecking Ball, which of course requires you to be in Black and Red, Beast Within, or Generous Gift. I'm sure there are others but the VAST majority of land destruction is at sorcery speed, which isn't going to help you.

Also, if I have Coalition Victory in hand, I'm not casting it into responses. I'm going to wait until people are tapped out and/or vulnerable.

You keep saying that Lab Man combo is as easy to pull off as CV. It's just not. The issue here is that CV requires you to jump through NO HOOPS except casting your Commander.

I've always preferred to call them minions since I largely play humanoid "creatures." Call it force of habit.

That being said, it's not like there aren't plenty of opportunities to play things at instant speed. Teferi cards aren't exactly uncommon in commander. Also, lab man combo can quite literally play as fast as CV, and is VASTLY harder to respond to, since the combo requires drawing your entire deck, a deck apt to have pact of negation and force of will. That'll be two completely free counters to stop anything that would interrupt the combo. That's not even considering any other counters there might be to prevent anyone stopping the combo.
CV is just nowhere near as oppressive or unfun as labman. I find mostly blue players defending it since they're the ones who play with it. I don't want it banned, but I don't understand why it's allowed to stay when CV is apparently too strong.

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