Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Oct-23 1:48 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 4:47 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
Shabbaman wrote:
If Coalition Victory starts people playing land destruction it's safe to say it'd be format warping.

What world are you living in where people don't have some form of land destruction? Plenty of people I know run things that destroy any permanents.

_________________
ImageImage
ImageImage


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 4:49 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
I don't necessarily think CV should be unbanned simply because it doesn't really need to exist in the format. Also, it serves as an example for similarly ban worthy cards, I suppose.

However, I don't agree that CV is easier to pull off than lab man or especially the new lab man Jace. I think people are way too eager to claim that CV is easier than lab man just because they want to defend the ban. All you really need is Demonic Consultation and a way to draw a single card (like Jace's draw ability). It may not be just one card, but 1. it doesn't need all five colors, 2. with the new Jace, each piece has utility outside the combo, and 3. it is way less mana intensive and way easier to protect. CV is an eight mana nothing before you have the resources to cast it. The biggest fault of CV is not that it's too easy to use, but rather that 1. it's anti-climactic and 2. stopping it is too unrewarding.

_________________
.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 5:10 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
MMLgamer wrote:
1. it's anti-climactic and 2. stopping it is too unrewarding.

1. I prefer "anti-climactic" cards like CV to "let me draw my entire deck and explain every single step while you literally can't interact in any way or I counter you." CV feels like a triumphant ending to a WUBRG deck, and with as many responses as you can apply to it, it feels earned.
2. What exactly do you mean by this?

_________________
ImageImage
ImageImage


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 5:42 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
This post got some wheels turning for me...

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Worldfire, Sway of the Stars, etc. are made VASTLY more powerful by the EDH ruleset


I don't think this is true anymore. This sorta goes beyond just Coalition Victory, butI think the new guys are right, and we're out of date on how we think about things:

http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19144

_________________
The deck-o-pedia


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 11:28 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
paragon_deku wrote:
A matter of whether anyone has removal or counterspells often ends up being the case for ANY wincondition regardless. I don’t see it as any more oppressive or unfun than lab maniac combos or getting whacked to death turn 2 by godo+helm of the host. But I am in no way saying those cards should be banned. I just genuinely don’t see coalition victory as any less fun to play against than those decks are.


it isn't and we should ban those cards to, this format would be infinitely better with at least 10 probably 20 more cards on the banlist.

_________________
Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 12:21 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Kemev wrote:
This post got some wheels turning for me...

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Worldfire, Sway of the Stars, etc. are made VASTLY more powerful by the EDH ruleset


I don't think this is true anymore. This sorta goes beyond just Coalition Victory, but I think the new guys are right, and we're out of date on how we think about things:

http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19144


I agree with Kemev here. A lot of these kinds of cards may have been seen as too problematic back when they were banned, but in today's environment there is a good chance that they would be fine. I think the main issue is that the rules committee is unable to really gather the data necessary to figure out the truth. (That's not a dig at the committee they personally just don't have the resources to pull this off). It's easier for them to keep them banned rather than good through the time and effort and risks of finding reasons to unban them.

Gath Immortal wrote:

it isn't and we should ban those cards to, this format would be infinitely better with at least 10 probably 20 more cards on the banlist.


Eh, I think the banlist could be smaller to be honest. Maybe swap around some of the cards that are on there. A big issue I have with the list as it stands is that it bans certain big payoffs rather than the enablers that make those payoffs so broken in the first place. Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial are victims of this in my opinion. Sheldon himself has said that getting rid of fast mana would likely make cards like these safer to have in the format.

http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/3 ... ander.html

(obviously this article is not an official statement in any way but it does shed light on some of Sheldon's own ideas)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 8:10 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
I'm not explaining the difference very well, but there is a HUGE difference between Coalition Victory and Laboratory Maniac in terms of trying to set up the win.

I think you can't explain it very well because it does not exist. You can have the Lab Man pieces out just as part of playing the game, same goes for infinite draw. People play cards like that just in the game too.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 9:39 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
Viperion wrote:
I'm not explaining the difference very well, but there is a HUGE difference between Coalition Victory and Laboratory Maniac in terms of trying to set up the win.

I think you can't explain it very well because it does not exist. You can have the Lab Man pieces out just as part of playing the game, same goes for infinite draw. People play cards like that just in the game too.

Apparently we're talking about two different games. I don't know about anyone who runs infinite draw "just as part of playing the game". I'm not even sure how you could do that.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 9:53 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
Viperion wrote:
I'm not explaining the difference very well, but there is a HUGE difference between Coalition Victory and Laboratory Maniac in terms of trying to set up the win.

I think you can't explain it very well because it does not exist. You can have the Lab Man pieces out just as part of playing the game, same goes for infinite draw. People play cards like that just in the game too.

Apparently we're talking about two different games. I don't know about anyone who runs infinite draw "just as part of playing the game". I'm not even sure how you could do that.

Devil's advocate, there are combos that use enter the infinite that don't involve lab maniac. However, I mostly see it with labman.

_________________
ImageImage
ImageImage


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 9:27 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You seem to be a bit caught up with this Lab Maniac combo thing, so let's take a moment to break down why that is not an apt comparison.

Lab Maniac combo requires:
LabMan in play
A way to draw your deck
A way to draw one more card

Typically this involves one of more of the following:
Infinite mana, Doomsday, Enter the infinite

You can interact with this combo by removing the lab maniac, or countering one of the spells to set it up, or break the infinite mana cycle, or shuffle cards back into their library. This is harder to stop because people that do it often include a lot of protections, as you have mentioned. Which means overall you have around 10 cards in your deck dedicated to setting up and protecting your lab maniac combo.

Coalition Victory requires:
a 5C commander
play lands
resolve coalition victory

You can interact with it by removing the commander or by tactically removing a land. It requires that you change 1 card in your deck. So while lab man decks tend to be harder to interact with once they get going, CV decks just play normal magic 90% of the time and every now and then the game just ends for no reason.

The differences lie in the fact that people build a LabMan deck, where the point is to win with LabMan, but you dont build a CV deck, you just put CV into a deck and get free wins.

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 9:54 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
specter404 wrote:
The differences lie in the fact that people build a LabMan deck, where the point is to win with LabMan, but you dont build a CV deck, you just put CV into a deck and get free wins.

I think if it were to be unbanned, some people would build with the express intent of winning with it. I've actually done this in 60-card, back when Invasion still had that new-card smell and domain had just been introduced - I was using Allied Strategies to fill my hand and Global Ruin to... be a dick. But seriously, the point of the deck was to stick a Sliver Queen and then win the game because Coalition Victory. So I'm pretty sure someone can and would build something cheaty to use CV with, no doubt protecting it with all the counterspells and setting it up with all the tutors, since 5-color = nothing is off-limits. Prismatic Omen rather than having any lands with basic types? Why not? Maybe run Transguild Courier because it can be powered out with just colorless? Or hell, citizen tokens from War of the Spark! Having real creatures is for pussies! I guess my long, rambling point here is that

TL;DR - You absolutely CAN just throw it in any 5-color deck and occasionally randomly win because the setup is super-duper easy. But that doesn't mean people won't go out of their way to use it too.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 10:05 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sure, but I was highlighting the differences, not the similarities to lab man. I should perhaps have said "you dont have to build a deck around CV"

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 1:14 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
paragon_deku wrote:
Devil's advocate, there are combos that use enter the infinite that don't involve lab maniac. However, I mostly see it with labman.

Perhaps we can just agree (in order to stop focusing on things that aren't important) that instead of Labman vs. Coalition Victory we can just talk about Infinite Combo vs. Coalition Victory. Whatever flavor of combo your boogeyman happens to be, they all involve playing a few cards that together make you win the game, and are being compared to a sorcery that involves assembling a few cards and then winning the game. If we can agree on this point, then let's go back to your original post - you're basically saying that;
1. You hate infinite combo wins and
2. Coalition Victory is simple and painless and easily thwarted.
Paragon_deku wrote:
The justification for keeping this card banned is just plain silly. Commander has far more frustrating and banal ways that games can end. A card that wins the game at sorcery speed and is immediately shut down by anything that can blow up a creature or land or counter a spell is in no way game breaking or unfun to play against. It happens quick and simple and ends the game then and there painlessly if it resolves. Combos where players take 3 extra turns and draw their entire deck just to win off of Lab Maniac and counter anything in their way are far more tedious and boring to play against. Coalition victory is far more flavorful and has more fair counterplay.

Putting aside, for the moment, what I have previously mentioned about the interaction between the EDH rules and CV, I find it a bit irritating that you claim other combo wins will be protected by all the counterspells forever, and take 3 years to set up, but apparently Coalition Victory will go like this;
Turn X: I have all 5 colors of basic land and my general in play. Pass turn.
Turn X+1: No one did anything to my board, so I will attempt CV.
-Case 1: Someone removes something or has a counterspell. Oh well.
-Case 2: I win. Yay.

Your presentation is ignoring the very real possibility that A: The 5-color player will spend 3 years masturbating his deck TO FIND COALITION VICTORY SO HE CAN WIN WITH IT, and B: That the CV player will be using all those same tools to protect his win. Like I pointed out to Specter, if you give the players the tools, they will use them, and it's not a guarantee that it will be some throwaway hail mary play that sometimes wins.

Now going back to the EDH rules I put aside temporarily, it CAN be a throwaway hail mary play. That means any time a 5-color player has 8 mana and their general (or enough mana to play both in one turn) you must always have an answer for CV available in case they have it. Does that really sound like fun to you? It doesn't to me. Of course you're welcome to like different things than I do, but I reject your "it's not unfun" claim as a valid reason to allow it.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 9:23 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-02 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Location: Connecticut
I think lots of commanders have their own notorious plays that everyone knows to be waiting for upon reaching certain criteria. Green has T&N/Craterhoof. Blue has Teferi/Knowledge Pool. I'm not the best candidate for rattling them all off, but you get the idea. Whenever you see a commander across the table, you know if that commander is a combo commander. At worst, all 5C commanders would be presumed to be two card combo commanders until proven otherwise. It wouldn't be bad for the table - mostly the 5c player. Kinda like commanders like Derevi and Zur can be now -- good luck convincing your table that you're actually just bird tribal or Theros block draft chaff.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Coalition Victory
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-12 4:55 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
specter404 wrote:
The differences lie in the fact that people build a LabMan deck, where the point is to win with LabMan, but you dont build a CV deck, you just put CV into a deck and get free wins.

I think if it were to be unbanned, some people would build with the express intent of winning with it. I've actually done this in 60-card, back when Invasion still had that new-card smell and domain had just been introduced - I was using Allied Strategies to fill my hand and Global Ruin to... be a dick. But seriously, the point of the deck was to stick a Sliver Queen and then win the game because Coalition Victory. So I'm pretty sure someone can and would build something cheaty to use CV with, no doubt protecting it with all the counterspells and setting it up with all the tutors, since 5-color = nothing is off-limits. Prismatic Omen rather than having any lands with basic types? Why not? Maybe run Transguild Courier because it can be powered out with just colorless? Or hell, citizen tokens from War of the Spark! Having real creatures is for pussies! I guess my long, rambling point here is that

TL;DR - You absolutely CAN just throw it in any 5-color deck and occasionally randomly win because the setup is super-duper easy. But that doesn't mean people won't go out of their way to use it too.


You left out Morophon, the Boundless now you can cast it for 3...unless you have Fist of the suns then it's free!

_________________
onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: