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 Post subject: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 5:29 pm 
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(I'm not sure why we've never made a single unban thread… seems like an oversight.)

I'm going to pretend everyone's read the first post of these two threads (I mean, I know you haven't, but I believe in you anyway):
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8121
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15686

For the most part, I've always been in favor of a longer banned list… I think it would do a better job signaling what the committee sees as the "spirit of the format" to a wider audience. At the same time, I think there's some real cognitive dissonance in the kinds of cards currently banned, so I'm gonna toss this grenade out there:

I think it's time for Biorhythym, Sway of the Stars, and Coalition Victory to be unbanned.

In the last 10 years, there's been a major shift in how people play the format. What started as janky, bulk-rare magic has transitioned to mythic haymaker magic, with a relatively advanced metagame focused on launching/disrupting game-ending critical turns. (Note: this is not an editorial, just an observation based on how a typical group looked at an EDH game in 2009, vs. how a typical group views Commander here in 2019).

When these cards were banned, they were unusual in that there weren't that many big, game ending sorceries available… heck, there just weren't that many big sorceries. To throw some numbers around that: around the time the original banlist was posted (2007ish? ...call it pre-Lorwyn block), there were only 40 sorceries of CMC 7 or greater. As of this writing, there are 140. Similarly, the number of X-cost spells has grown from 70, to more like 150. Along the way, I think most players got comfortable with the idea that if someone successfully resolves a 8-10 mana spell, they earned the win.

Don't get me wrong… I get that Biorythym, Sway, and Victory are all powerful, game-winning cards. But at this point, there's an awful lot of sorceries that fit that same role. And while we hate trying to make equivalencies in the Rules subforum, I don't think it feels different to lose to one of these three than lose to Exsanguinate, Tooth and Nail, Expropriate, the Finale cycle, or whatever other new haymaker just came out. It's similar to how Kokusho got unbanned… when it was banned, it was in a class of its own. It's not that the Kokusho got worse; instead, over the years its class got bigger, until finally it didn't really make sense to stay banned.

The other thing that got Kokusho unbanned, though, was a vocal minority to lobby for it. (Remember Surging Chaos? Dude was after Koko to be unbanned for 5 years.) These three sorceries don't necessarily have an active following, but I think at some level they damage the credibility of the banned list. At some point, we're stuck in eternal, reductive, arguments to the effect of, "Why is winning with Sway of the Stars different from winning with Enter the Infinite? Or Expropriate? Or taking every turn with Nexus of Fate? Or… (insert next busted resource breaker)?"

At some point, I think we have to accept that these three cards aren't special anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 11:05 pm 
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All the "YES"s!

I mean, I am very "let people play what they paid for" in casual envirnments and I really appreciate the time and effort that you put into this opener. We do not cater to the cEDH crowd and we are crafting the experience towards those who have a stable group of friends to play in/or a local card shop. If people do the set up to kill everybody with Biorhythm then people need to either play low cmc creatures or kill spells. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 12:30 am 
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While I agree with a lot of the factual statements made, I fundamentally disagree with the mindset going on here.

I think that the comparisons are being made wrongly. Coalition Victory and most other boring "counter this or I win" spells are not comparable, as the how is actually relevant. The simple reason is looking at the cards top-to-bottom, potential to baseline. Expropriate for example is often a "counter this or win" spell, but when it isn't it has a noticeable effect on the game. Its potential is to win on the spot, while its baseline is effectively Blatant Thievery that untaps all your lands and draws you a card. Tooth and Nail is in a similar boat, and Exsanguinate and friends are even more so as they have functions outside of trying to win the game that turn. And all of these spells, when and if they don't win on the spot, still meaningfully advance the board state.

Compare this to Coalition Victory. When it is played, one of three things happens:
1. It gets countered
2. The conditions aren't met and it does nothing
3. The game is over
There is no gray area. Coalition Victory has two modes: win you the game right now, or fizzle and do literally nothing. It is the most boring and anticlimactic card in all of Magic. I've seen Expropriate steal a Mycoloth only to be get hit by a Rakdos Charm. I've seen T&N be used to help assemble all 10 Battlebond partners at once. I've seen Exsanguinate be used merely for the life gain. There are no cool stories like that that will ever come from a Coalition Victory. It will always win the game boringly, or fail boringly.

Sway of the Stars has a similar story. Unlike Victory, it has no way to interact with it outside of a counterspell. And then when it resolves, one of two things happens: it either wins the game or resets it to the beginning and pretends everything else didn't happen. So instead of the "win or do nothing", it's "win, do something sucky, or do nothing". Worldfire is in a similar boat but worse, since it puts everyone in topdeck mode and you can expect about 10 minutes of "draw, go" before the winner is determined by a coin flip.

Biorhythm is the only card on the banned list for whom this argument seems remotely cogent. It's still one of the most boring ways to win all of Magic, but it has just enough counterplay, setup, and effect on the game outside of straight-up-winning that maybe I could be convinced that it doesn't need to be banned.
_______________________________________________________________________________

All of the above said, I think there is another crucial point that's not being addressed: namely that the rationale for banning something and unbanning something are different. A lot of times people tend to argue for an unbanning along the lines of "this card didn't deserve to be banned" or "if this card was printed today it wouldn't be banned", when the real line of argument should be "does this deserve to be unbanned". And there are three types of cards that ever fit that description:
1. Cards that actually bring something positive to the game that can offset the reason behind the banning (Kokusho, Hulk)
2. Cards that are so innocuous that they bring virtually zero risk to unban (LED, Worldgorger)
3. Cards that do both (Metalworker, Staff, Painter's Servant).
Victory, Sway, and Worldfire fit none of the above criteria even remotely, and on a good day you may be able to convince me that Biorhythm is in category 2.

Another way to put it: imagine that Mark Rosewater himself comes up to you to discuss cards they're making for the upcoming set, and he mentions he's thinking of printing a card that is more or less a functional reprint of Sway. Would you advise him for or against it? I think we'd all agree to the latter, that the game as a whole is better without it. With Sway currently banned, that is roughly the position we're in.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 12:57 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
There are no cool stories like that that will ever come from a Coalition Victory. It will always win the game boringly, or fail boringly.


This is something that could be said of numerous cards currently legal (Laboratory Maniac comes to mind) and either way the idea of what's "boring" and "fun" are highly subjective. To me, Labman is one of the most overused and boring ways to win I can think of. Yet plenty of people use it because they think it's fun and that's fine. Cyclonic rift is another card that is extremely boring, format warping, and overplayed, but remains legal. While I understand that this is more of an argument for banning these cards rather than unbanning Coalition Victory, (I would rather see none of these cards banned to be honest) I don't think the idea of Coalition Victory being "boring" is fair criteria for it to remain banned.

Quote:
Biorhythm is the only card on the banned list for whom this argument seems remotely cogent. It's still one of the most boring ways to win all of Magic, but it has just enough counter play, setup, and effect on the game outside of straight-up-winning that maybe I could be convinced that it doesn't need to be banned.


I agree that Biorhythm is the best candidate for this argument. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to ensure a victory with the card, assuming it doesn't just get countered once you tap out for the EIGHT mana you need to play it, assuming you're playing it on curve. I personally think a lot of people underestimate how much set up that is required to win with this card, and how easily that set up is countered just by naturally playing the game. Against three other opponents, it seems very unlikely that one player will have a lethal number of creatures and everyone else will have no creatures, no boardwipes, and no counterspells. Overall, if your opponent has a huge swarm of creatures and you have next to none, then the writing is on the wall for your loss, whether it's through biorhythm or just a normal combat step. I guess what I'm really trying to say in this rambling is that in almost any boardstate where Biorhythm would win immediately, the player with Biorhythm is likely about to win through other means anyway.


Last edited by CowsCowsCows on 2019-Jun-07 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 1:05 am 
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Yeah, I have to agree with Uktabi_Kong here. He spend a bit of time, so anyone can go read his thoughts, I don't really have much to add to it.

There's a ... feeling of dread thinking of my opponents playing with most of these cards mentioned. I think it's because, as Uktabi_Kong mentioned, there's little impact to the game other than "game over, or nothing."

They're not interesting or exciting plays to make -- so why would we want to have players play them?

CowsCowsCows wrote:
This is something that could be said of numerous cards currently legal (Laboratory Maniac comes to mind) and either way the idea of what's "boring" and "fun" are highly subjective
Lab Maniac requires so much more interesting things to happen. Plus, when you go for it, either you succeed, or you lose -- but the game is changed even if you don't succeed (perhaps depending on timing & backup plans you may not lose, but at the simple level ... you're attempting to do something that will end the game, or alter the game significantly.)

Those cards listed above don't do that. They end the game or... nothing interesting.
CowsCowsCows wrote:
yclonic rift is another card that is extremely boring, format warping, and overplayed, but remains legal.
I don't think you are quite using the term "format-warping" the same way as others here. In what way is Cyclonic Rift format warping in your mind?
CowsCowsCows wrote:
I don't think the idea of Coalition Victory being "boring" is fair criteria for it to remain banned.
Good thing that's not what we're saying. We're saying it "Interacts poorly with the format" -- and the end result is that it's very boring.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 1:56 am 

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I take umbrage to people claiming coalition victory is boring or anti-climactic. Lab maniac wins are not fun to anyone except the person who wins and are often, baring extreme circumstances, impossible to stop once they start since they have a guaranteed 2 free counters from force of will and pact of negation. If I pop down wound reflection and then fraying omnipotence in one turn to immediately win, is that anti-climactic? The easiest way to prevent the death of everyone at the table would be to counter it, and in that case nothing happened either. I understand fraying omnipotence could technically have other uses, but I rarely see it played outside of an enabler for wound reflection.
The thing is, I vastly prefer someone casting coalition victory than to pull out a long-winded combo where they draw their entire deck and I can only watch. If someone casts coalition victory, I can destroy their win immediately with something like unmake or crib swap. In that case, the game is still changed since now the board collectively has a new potential target of our interest, just in case they have a way to cast it again. That ends up being far more interesting to me for the sake of politicking and gameplay. It may just be me, but I find the card to be one of the ones I find uniquely flavorful, which is probably why I enjoy it so much. Meanwhile, a completely banal, anti-climatic, and unfun way to play is when the blue player says “do I have to explain this combo or can you just scoop” while then proceeding to counter both instants I attempt to cast to prevent the combo from happening.
I feel as if very little will change of CV is unbanned, and since this is a largely casual and community driven format, I feel like it should be put up to a vote to have a trial period of unbanning it to see if it really is as oppressive as it was when this game was 12 years younger.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 4:05 am 
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paragon_deku wrote:
I take umbrage to people claiming coalition victory is boring or anti-climactic. Lab maniac wins are not fun to anyone except the person who wins and are often, baring extreme circumstances, impossible to stop once they start since they have a guaranteed 2 free counters from force of will and pact of negation.

Whoa whoa whoa. So let's see now ... that requires them to have the maniac in play (it's non legendary, so you need to dig/tutor for it) as well as having 2 specific counterspells in hand -- again, have to dig/tutor for them. So this is at least 3 card combo (probably more as you want to be able to trigger the draw to win the game from Lab Maniac)

Now compare that to Coalition Victory -- one spell, one creature (commander, so always available no need to dig/tutor), and lands you're playing anyways as you need to cast the spell.

The setups for both of these are vastly different. So while it may be boring to watch the Lab Maniac combo go off -- at least they had to work for doing it beyond just "have you killed me yet? Okay I play my one card when my commander is out."

At least the lab maniac combo can be interactive -- they interact with anyone trying to remove their creature, with a high risk of losing the game if they don't protect it properly. If you don't protect your creature(s) properly with CV -- well, then nothing happens. There's no risk involved.

You seem to be throwing out examples where it requires more cards than 1 card in deck, and your commander. Which makes performing such a combo harder and harder. Winning through a multi-card combo is just fine. CV isn't (in Commander) generally considered a multi-card combo, because it requires board state that will likely happen just from playing the game. You don't need to specifically build around it at all. You don't need excessive set up. You don't run the risk of something really bad happening if it doesn't work when you try it.

None of the examples you've been showing as counter examples have all those "problems" with them existing in Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 4:37 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
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Carthain wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I take umbrage to people claiming coalition victory is boring or anti-climactic. Lab maniac wins are not fun to anyone except the person who wins and are often, baring extreme circumstances, impossible to stop once they start since they have a guaranteed 2 free counters from force of will and pact of negation.

Whoa whoa whoa. So let's see now ... that requires them to have the maniac in play (it's non legendary, so you need to dig/tutor for it) as well as having 2 specific counterspells in hand -- again, have to dig/tutor for them. So this is at least 3 card combo (probably more as you want to be able to trigger the draw to win the game from Lab Maniac)

I really can't tell if you're being intentionally disingenuous or if you really just have no idea how the combo works. There's no need to dig or tutor for them when the entire schtick of the deck is to draw your entire library. They're going to all be in your hand when you pull off the combo, and as I said, that will mean 2 entirely free counters. I'm really not going to bother to read the rest of what you said because you've demonstrated you don't understand how what I'm complaining about even works and don't seem to understand that in a WUBRG deck you'd ALSO have to tutor for CV.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 4:56 am 
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paragon_deku wrote:
I really can't tell if you're being intentionally disingenuous or if you really just have no idea how the combo works.

Go with the second one, as I don't have anybody locally who runs this.

So with that said - break it down for me. How does it win. And you can't say "draw your entire deck" I need specifics of how it does that.

Then, if I need to adjust my previous comment, I will.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 5:24 am 

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Carthain wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I really can't tell if you're being intentionally disingenuous or if you really just have no idea how the combo works.

Go with the second one, as I don't have anybody locally who runs this.

So with that said - break it down for me. How does it win. And you can't say "draw your entire deck" I need specifics of how it does that.

Then, if I need to adjust my previous comment, I will.

There are several variations, but the most common one I've seen is won by pumping out a metric fuckton of mana with mana rocks early on, drawing until you get a tutor and grabbing enter the infinite, casting it (either with counters in hand or with one of the millions of blue effects that will let you cast spells for free), and then casting labman (protecting it with two completely free counters) and using any of the dozens of card draw options blue offers.
The only real counterplay to it is to either have enough counters as a table to breach through it or to shut it down early, which has led me to being paranoid enough to always target blue players at my LGS because of it, which seems far more "format warping" than CV could possibly be.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 5:41 am 
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paragon_deku wrote:
There are several variations, but the most common one I've seen is won by pumping out a metric fuckton of mana with mana rocks early on, drawing until you get a tutor and grabbing enter the infinite, casting it (either with counters in hand or with one of the millions of blue effects that will let you cast spells for free), and then casting labman (protecting it with two completely free counters) and using any of the dozens of card draw options blue offers.


This suggests that Laboratory Maniac is merely the payoff- -you could choose any number of other ways to "win the game" once you've drawn your deck, right?

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 5:58 am 

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paragon_deku wrote:
Carthain wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I really can't tell if you're being intentionally disingenuous or if you really just have no idea how the combo works.

Go with the second one, as I don't have anybody locally who runs this.

So with that said - break it down for me. How does it win. And you can't say "draw your entire deck" I need specifics of how it does that.

Then, if I need to adjust my previous comment, I will.

There are several variations, but the most common one I've seen is won by pumping out a metric fuckton of mana with mana rocks early on, drawing until you get a tutor and grabbing enter the infinite, casting it (either with counters in hand or with one of the millions of blue effects that will let you cast spells for free), and then casting labman (protecting it with two completely free counters) and using any of the dozens of card draw options blue offers.
The only real counterplay to it is to either have enough counters as a table to breach through it or to shut it down early, which has led me to being paranoid enough to always target blue players at my LGS because of it, which seems far more "format warping" than CV could possibly be.


Most of the wins I've personally gotten or seen with LabMan are the result of Doomsday piles, and you really cant afford to put both free counters in there unless you have most of the card draw you need already in hand.

That said, i really have no issue with unbanning CV, or any of the other cards listed here. Not Worldfire, that one's still awful.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 6:01 am 
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paragon_deku wrote:
Carthain wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I really can't tell if you're being intentionally disingenuous or if you really just have no idea how the combo works.

Go with the second one, as I don't have anybody locally who runs this.

So with that said - break it down for me. How does it win. And you can't say "draw your entire deck" I need specifics of how it does that.

Then, if I need to adjust my previous comment, I will.

There are several variations, but the most common one I've seen is won by pumping out a metric fuckton of mana with mana rocks early on, drawing until you get a tutor and grabbing enter the infinite, casting it (either with counters in hand or with one of the millions of blue effects that will let you cast spells for free), and then casting labman (protecting it with two completely free counters) and using any of the dozens of card draw options blue offers.
The only real counterplay to it is to either have enough counters as a table to breach through it or to shut it down early, which has led me to being paranoid enough to always target blue players at my LGS because of it, which seems far more "format warping" than CV could possibly be.

Okay soooo.... This "combo" requires Enter the Infinite, multiple (a whole bunch) of cards that draw more cards in your deck, as well as Lab Maniac and some counterspells.

There's no comparison here. With CV, you need perhaps a tutor & the CV card -- the rest is available to you via your commander or just playing a 5 colour deck. For your Lab Maniac example, you need to devote a large chunk of your deck to that combo. So all those draw-cards spells all count towards how many cards are required for this combo to work.

Historically, the RC doesn't ban for combos that are either obvious or ones that require you to significantly alter your deck to build for (another one like this that people used to talk about is Hermit Druid.)

The RC does ban card CARDS that tend to invalidate all progress in the game up until that point when they resolve, as well as cards that look like they are fun, but end up not being all that enjoyable (generally these are ones that "Interact poorly with the format" -- Panoptic Mirror is also banned for very similar reasons.)

So while my previous post (where you said I must be disingenuous) may have some of the specifics in error, the general idea of the post is appropriate: There's so much more involved in the Lab Maniac combo than there is to win with CV. The RC has not had a problem with people winning through the use of multiple cards when they work well together.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 7:00 am 

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I think the main difference is this:
With the Lab Man combo, the person designs their deck to win with that card. They don't just throw Lab Man in their deck because it says "Win the Game" on it.
With Coalition Victory, any five-color deck can do just that. They can throw the one card in their deck and just win sometimes. The rest of the deck can be optimized to present a completely different game plan, and if the opponent uses enough resources on that, Coalition Victory has the opportunity to steal the game.
Personally, I don't think Coalition Victory would see a lot of play in my group for the same reason I don't see the Lab Man win often, in that people who aren't playing to maximize their win rate generally get bored of winning with the same cards over and over (assuming that it's a good card: if your deck is designed to only win with Storm Crow, I can see that being a different way to have fun).

As far as Biorhythm, I think that it could be unbanned, but I think Shaman of Forgotten Ways is a more interesting version of the card that almost nobody plays anyways because it's so easy for you to get blown out by your own card. (I think the best moment for me was playing against my friends charms deck. I activated Shaman when he had no creatures out, so he casts Rith's Charm in response. I then attacked him for lethal but he casts Azorius Charm to give his tokens lifelink and then casts Rakdos Charm to kill the table).

Sway of the Stars for me falls into the same category of mass land destruction where its more annoying when the player who casts it doesn't win. I would rather face this card than Worldpurge though.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 7:54 am 

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Quote:
The RC does ban card CARDS that tend to invalidate all progress in the game up until that point when they resolve, as well as cards that look like they are fun, but end up not being all that enjoyable


This is one of the reasons I dislike Cyclonic Rift haha


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