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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 10:46 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Well, for starters, I know that the RC pays attention to a wide variety of message boards on the topic. That doesn't mean they play with everyone (obviously this is impossible) nor does it mean they respond to every post/topic regarding EDH (again, this would be impossible), but it DOES mean that they hear the stories and opinions of a wide spectrum of players, both casual and not, that extends well beyond these boards and their local playgroups. They also have a strong relationship with WotC, both due to prior history (they're all high-level DCI judges, in case you didn't know) and because of WotC's decision to officially support EDH and work with the RC in so doing. And now there's the CAG, which expands the number of voices being heard both directly (as the CAG and the RC interact) as well as indirectly (as information passes to them through the CAG). Obviously there is no way to poll the entirety of the magic-playing world, but given the prevalence of social media in people's lives today, and the RC's presence thereon, I think the sample size is much better than you're giving credit for.


People on message boards represent an extremely small percentage of the total EDH population. My point is that just interacting with people who use old forums dedicated to EDH isn’t enough outreach.I think the CAG is a step in the right direction though. Hopefully it lets more people express their opinions so the RC can be representative of a wider branch of the community. Also I’m totally in favor of a stronger relationship with WoTC. Personally I wish WoTC themselves had control over the banlist, or at least a lot more of an involvement in it.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 11:44 am 
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I would rather see Emrakul legal than WOTC controlling the EDH ban list.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 12:02 pm 
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CowsCowsCows wrote:
People on message boards represent an extremely small percentage of the total EDH population. My point is that just interacting with people who use old forums dedicated to EDH isn’t enough outreach.I think the CAG is a step in the right direction though. Hopefully it lets more people express their opinions so the RC can be representative of a wider branch of the community. Also I’m totally in favor of a stronger relationship with WoTC. Personally I wish WoTC themselves had control over the banlist, or at least a lot more of an involvement in it.

Message boards means not just these forums, but Reddit, MtGSalvation, StarCity, and so on, not to mention Twitter, Facebook, etc. And most of these are dedicated to MtG in general, not EDH specifically, which only serves to widen the net, so to speak. While that certainly doesn't capture everyone, I don't think you're being realistic when you say it's an extremely small percentage either.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 12:03 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
I would rather see Emrakul legal than WOTC controlling the EDH ban list.

I actually talked with Sheldon about this during one of our games, and he said we don't have to worry about WotC trying to muscle in and take control.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 12:35 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
kirkusjones wrote:
I would rather see Emrakul legal than WOTC controlling the EDH ban list.


Why?


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 1:27 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
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Location: Midgard
CowsCowsCows wrote:
kirkusjones wrote:
I would rather see Emrakul legal than WOTC controlling the EDH ban list.

Why?

I'm happy to be corrected, but hasn't Wizards made an absolute mess of competitive 1v1 Commander on MTGO? I don't play the format, but it's a sentiment I've heard from Brian Weissman more than a few times on his 1v1 Commander videos. I've also seen it echoed a few times on Reddit (although I don't have specific examples prepared; a very preliminary search yielded this thread from a year ago--the banlist has changed since then, but maybe not enough to fix things?).

Has WOTC ever successfully moderated a casual (that is, not competitive) format? I don't recall there really being one. If I may, can I flip the question back on you? What qualities/history does WOTC have which would serve them in moderating the format? Commander is...one of, if not the most popular formats right now--would WOTC moderating it somehow make it more successful or popular?

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 1:42 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Segrus wrote:
CowsCowsCows wrote:
kirkusjones wrote:
I would rather see Emrakul legal than WOTC controlling the EDH ban list.

Why?

I'm happy to be corrected, but hasn't Wizards made an absolute mess of competitive 1v1 Commander on MTGO? I don't play the format, but it's a sentiment I've heard from Brian Weissman more than a few times on his 1v1 Commander videos. I've also seen it echoed a few times on Reddit (although I don't have specific examples prepared; a very preliminary search yielded this thread from a year ago--the banlist has changed since then, but maybe not enough to fix things?).

Has WOTC ever successfully moderated a casual (that is, not competitive) format? I don't recall there really being one. If I may, can I flip the question back on you? What qualities/history does WOTC have which would serve them in moderating the format? Commander is...one of, if not the most popular formats right now--would WOTC moderating it somehow make it more successful or popular?


As a large company WoTC would have the resources to gather more accurate and effective data in order to create a more efficient banlist that better reflects the majority of EDH players. Personally, I think it just makes sense for the company that prints and designs the cards to also be in charge of the rules and regulations for the formats those cards are used in, but it’s fine for other people to think differently. I would personally like if multiplayer commander became a sanctioned format and had an official sanctioned banlist. Also for what it’s worth I would love to see Emrakul unbanned it’s a great iconic card and a lot of fun to play with.


Last edited by CowsCowsCows on 2019-Jun-16 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 2:00 pm 
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Maro, the biggest figure in design and development, historically has hated color identity--part of what makes Commander unique--and I believe in the past has been against formats with >2 players.

Sometimes the people who design a game aren't the best at determining everything for it.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 2:06 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Segrus wrote:
Maro, the biggest figure in design and development, historically has hated color identity--part of what makes Commander unique--and I believe in the past has been against formats with >2 players.

Sometimes the people who design a game aren't the best at determining everything for it.


I mean I could say the same thing about the Rules Committee not being the best for determining all of the rules for EDH couldn’t I? Didn’t members of the RC design commander? Also, Maro is head of Research and Development, but there are plenty of other people working for WoTC that could help regulate EDH.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 2:43 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
It isn't very nice to edit a past comment to add thoughts without indicating what the additions were, since I clearly responded to the comment before the edit was made. It's a bit dishonest when having a discussion in this form.

The same people you're talking about have been doing a poor job of moderating 1v1 Commander online--at least as far I'm currently aware--despite having all that data. And while that data is available, it's essentially only useful for helping determine what to do with competitive play. It wouldn't necessarily be helpful for non-competitive play, which I've already stated they don't really have experience in as a company.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-16 4:37 pm 
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Just look at Brawl to see what we could look forward too with WotC in charge of EDH. :?


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-17 12:16 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm going to ignore most of the talk about how responsive the RC is and how represented people feel, and if WOTC would be good or not for the format. I'm going back to talking with Kemev about what he started this thread for.

Kemev wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Kemev: You're pushing for these cards to be unbanned. Would you be just as happy if some or all of the cards you're comparing them to (T&N, Exsanguinate, etc) were banned as well?
If you had asked me 2-3 years ago, I would've said yes ... But now, I don't think that works anymore... I took about a year, 18 months or so off of Magic entirely, and now that I'm playing again, I find Commander quite a bit different. I'm not sure whether it was my perception evolved, or the cards, or the general player population (probably a combination of all of the above). I think at some point, most folks have gotten ok with the big sorcery win-con, and I don't find much reason to object. On top of that, WotC seems to have picked up that a lot of players enjoy big spells, so they're going to keep making new ones.

It's sorta like mass land destruction... yeah, it can be annoying in the wrong group, but there's so many similar cards it doesn't make sense to try to legislate it away.


Okay, so... why do you think it's a good idea to have a spell like Worldfire exist? (I'm picking worldfire as I think it's more straightforward than something like Sway.) As points against it - it literally erases everything that everyone has done so far in the game, and puts people into top-deck mode.

The format wants to be a format where big plays can happen, but where memorable stories are also made. What memorable or fun stories get to be made with that card?


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-17 12:31 am 
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I played legacy for years before I saw the light and switched to EDH. Miracles was clearly the best deck in the format for two plus years before Wizards took any action, which happened to follow on the heels (coincidentally or not) of someone placing a vandalized road sign in their parking lot demanding the banning of Sensei's Divining Top.

Alternatively, we could have their approach to modern, where the banhammer swings far more often and is aimed at whatever top cards/strategies are popular, usually online.

If you want more bans with little to no explanation and an even more aloof entity running the show, by all means, advocate for a Wizards run format. But that is not what I want at all. Wizards is not going to give you the toys you want.

As for Emrakul, how fast do you want your games to be? As a commander, it would be frightening, but in the 99, tutorable, show-and-tell-able, tooth-and-nailable, shallow-graveable Emrakul would be miserable and game warping. Everyone can run it or run ways to steal/copy it. Annihilator six is almost always guaranteed to knock a player out of the game before turns 8-10 and even then you might as well scoop because you're so far behind. I enjoy playing competitive, cutthroat decks, but Emrakul contributes nothing of value to the format other than creating bad feelings and archenemy scenarios.

Cows, might I suggest trying Sneak and Show in Legacy? That should scratch your Emrakul itch. 1v1, Emrakul ends the game. In multiplayer, it knocks one player out and then centralizes the rest of the game around itself until it's dealt with.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-17 12:36 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Segrus wrote:
It isn't very nice to edit a past comment to add thoughts without indicating what the additions were, since I clearly responded to the comment before the edit was made. It's a bit dishonest when having a discussion in this form.


I was in the middle of editing some grammatical mistakes when you posted your comment. You can see that I finished editing at 3:02 and your comment was made at 3:00. Please don’t go around accusing people of being dishonest unless you have a damn good reason for it.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-17 1:29 am 
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CowsCowsCows wrote:
Segrus wrote:
It isn't very nice to edit a past comment to add thoughts without indicating what the additions were, since I clearly responded to the comment before the edit was made. It's a bit dishonest when having a discussion in this form.


I was in the middle of editing some grammatical mistakes when you posted your comment. You can see that I finished editing at 3:02 and your comment was made at 3:00. Please don’t go around accusing people of being dishonest unless you have a damn good reason for it.

The following was added after I commented:

"As a large company WoTC would have the resources to gather more accurate and effective data in order to create a more efficient banlist that better reflects the majority of EDH players."

That's not fixing a grammatical error. The comment I saw started on the sentence following this.

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