Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Jun-26 4:17 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 140 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 7:59 am 

Joined: 2018-Jul-15 5:17 am
Age: Hatchling
I nominate Recurring Nightmare. I assert there's sufficient graveyard hate in the format now to safely release it back into the wild.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 8:13 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
DegenerateGameGeek wrote:
I nominate Recurring Nightmare. I assert there's sufficient graveyard hate in the format now to safely release it back into the wild.

I am not 100% sure the timing and priority rules really make this a strong factor.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 2:04 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
So a few things that I want to add, and I'll do it here rather than in the other thread;

1. LabMan vs. CV - as someone pointed out, CV is a card that you can just throw in and occasionally win just because. It's not the focus of the deck. As someone also pointed out, the choice of instant win is kinda irrelevant if you've got the kind of power needed to draw your entire deck at once - at that point if you DON'T win, you're probably doing it wrong. Furthermore, LabMan combo is not inherently stronger in EDH vs. regular magic. Coalition Victory, whether you like it or not, IS.

2. As long as Zo-Zu the Punisher is a card, thou shalt not unban Worldfire.

3. Biorhythm... if you think "run more small dudes" is a rational response to Biorythm being legal, I'm not sure you understand how killing with it works.

4. Sway of the Stars, in the best case for the table, means starting the whole game over with no mulligans and 7 life. Before any of these cards are unbanned, I would like to know what they ADD to the format, other than "more overcosted spells that probably cut the game short".

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 4:08 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Coalition Victory has two modes: win you the game right now, or fizzle and do literally nothing.


So this isn't an argument; this is a tautology. "Your win-con either wins the game or it doesn't," covers all cards in all situations. I get the point you're trying to make (that other similar cards (that other big sorceries leave some sort of board change behind), but at some point, if your haymaker gets Dissipate'd, does it matter what the haymaker was? ...I don't think most players care at this point.

What I'd like to hear is, do you guys disagree that a typical Commander game has become about big, critical turn plays?

And, do you think that how one of those big turns wins is important?

Sid the Chicken wrote:
I would like to know what they ADD to the format, other than "more overcosted spells that probably cut the game short".


My take here is that the format's already saturated with " overcosted spells that probably cut the game short." I don't think these three subtract from the format anything from the format that's not already gone. Unbanning them would give people the ability to play with cards they like.

_________________
The deck-o-pedia


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 4:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Just to throw this out there... I think Sway, 'rhythym, and 'Victory are in a different group from Worldfire. The first three probably end the game, and I think that's probably fine. Worldfire probably doesn't end the game, and sentencing the table to a lengthy, meaningless topdeck grind probably isn't fine.

_________________
The deck-o-pedia


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 12:24 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Kemev wrote:
sentencing the table to a lengthy, meaningless topdeck grind probably isn't fine.

Sway can definitely do this too.

Kemev wrote:
My take here is that the format's already saturated with " overcosted spells that probably cut the game short." I don't think these three subtract from the format anything from the format that's not already gone. Unbanning them would give people the ability to play with cards they like.

In other words they add nothing. You can find players that like just about any card on the banned list, so I really don't think that's a reason to unban a card. Also you haven't addressed the idea that the structure of EDH makes these cards better than they're supposed to be.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 4:30 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Coalition Victory has two modes: win you the game right now, or fizzle and do literally nothing.


So this isn't an argument; this is a tautology. "Your win-con either wins the game or it doesn't," covers all cards in all situations. I get the point you're trying to make (that other similar cards (that other big sorceries leave some sort of board change behind), but at some point, if your haymaker gets Dissipate'd, does it matter what the haymaker was? ...I don't think most players care at this point.
What you said is a tautology, but it isn't what I said. Doing a little substitution, "Tooth and Nail has two modes: win you the game right now, or fizzle and do literally nothing." That statement is neither a tautology nor true. To further illustrate my point, take a look at the following two scenarios:

Player 1: I cast Tooth and Nail entwined, getting out Craterhoof Behemoth and Avenger of Zendikar. Since I have Anger, I'll swing with my whole board for lethal.

Player 2: I'll Quicken an Insurrection, then sac my whole board to Krav, the Unredeemed, gaining 20 life, drawing that many cards, and making him huge.

Player 1: I have my Sliver Queen out, and I'll cast Coalition Victory for game.

Player 2: Dovin's Veto

Those two situations, despite both being an example of "big game-winning sorcery being thwarted" have nothing else in common. One was a situation that required setup and planning on both sides and led to a tremendous shift in the board state, the other was simply "player plays card, other player plays removal". The important thing is that while situation 2 can and often does happen to cards like T&N or Expropriate or what have you, situation 1 can never happen to CV. It will never make a game more interesting, it will never encourage a creative response, it will never encourage meaningful interaction with the board state and players. It will either end the game on the spot, or eat a removal spell. Every time, no exceptions.

Kemev wrote:
What I'd like to hear is, do you guys disagree that a typical Commander game has become about big, critical turn plays?

And, do you think that how one of those big turns wins is important?
To the first question, the answer is yes and no. I think your focus on big sorceries is quite a bit more narrow than I'd like, since I consider cards like Razaketh, the Foulblooded to fall in the category of big haymakers.

But to the actual point, my experience has been one where the big haymaker spells tend to be removal magnets, and the actual winner of the game is then determined by who can stick some sort of value engine and win the attrition game.

In regards to the second point, I think I've addressed most of the reasons why earlier in this post, but my answer is a firm yes.

Kemev wrote:
Unbanning them would give people the ability to play with cards they like.

This is a slight hyperbole, but I think the people who like Coalition Victory and Sway of the Stars are those who have never played them or seen them played.

_________________


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 4:36 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
situation 1 can never happen to CV. It will never make a game more interesting, it will never encourage a creative response, it will never encourage meaningful interaction with the board state and players. It will either end the game on the spot, or eat a removal spell. Every time, no exceptions.


I don’t see how this is true. Someone could just as easily Quicken an Insurrection (as referenced in your first example) in response to Coalition Victory, thwarting the Coalition Victory and changing the boardstate. Reins of Power could do the same thing but for a lot less mana and in one color. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 4:42 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
situation 1 can never happen to CV. It will never make a game more interesting, it will never encourage a creative response, it will never encourage meaningful interaction with the board state and players. It will either end the game on the spot, or eat a removal spell. Every time, no exceptions.

To be fair, it is at least possible that in response to CV, someone could Quicken Blatant Thievery, steal enough things to complete the requirements of CV on their own board and then Twincast or otherwise take control of CV, winning the game themselves instead. That would qualify for a creative response in my book. It is, however, exceedingly unlikely.

CowsCowsCows wrote:
I don’t see how this is true. Someone could just as easily Quicken an Insurrection (as referenced in your first example) in response to Coalition Victory, thwarting the Coalition Victory and changing the boardstate. Reins of Power could do the same thing but for a lot less mana and in one color.

That falls into the category of "eating a removal spell". There would be no significant lasting board change other than possibly you sac the 5-color creature so they have to re-cast it.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 4:47 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
CowsCowsCows wrote:
Quote:
situation 1 can never happen to CV. It will never make a game more interesting, it will never encourage a creative response, it will never encourage meaningful interaction with the board state and players. It will either end the game on the spot, or eat a removal spell. Every time, no exceptions.


I don’t see how this is true. Someone could just as easily Quicken an Insurrection (as referenced in your first example) in response to Coalition Victory, thwarting the Coalition Victory and changing the boardstate. Reins of Power could do the same thing but for a lot less mana and in one color. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

It is true that you could still pull off the Insurrection play there, but the difference is thus: what difference does the Coalition Victory make? How does Coalition Victory make that play a better play then than doing it at any other time in the game? It doesn't aside from "you lose the game if you don't do it now". Compare that to the Craterhoof example, where casting it then as opposed to any other time actually made it a stronger play.

_________________


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 6:08 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
If coalition victory is banned because all it ends up doing is eating a counter and is unintuitive, I’d like to know everyone’s take on godo + helm of the host

_________________
ImageImage
ImageImage


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 6:40 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Kong, I just don't think your examples are good. They still fall under, "well, in some situations, people will react and change the table, but in some situations they won't and the game will end." At some point, it's ok for the game to be over. You can argue it out with Cows and deku over the particular examples, but the arguments are ultimately gonna depend on subjective examples of what different players deem fair or interactive. For me, a sequence involving "Razaketh, tutor for my combo, win the game" doesn't seem inherently different from "Sway of the Stars, reduce everyone to 7, draw some burn/haste, win the game."

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Sway can definitely do this too.


No, it doesn't. Even if you're assuming someone's not floating mana to cast their fresh cards, the table gets a fresh hand to play with. It's a huge table reset, but one way or another Sway's finishing the game.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Also you haven't addressed the idea that the structure of EDH makes these cards better than they're supposed to be.


This honestly doesn't make sense to me. Every new release for the last six years has brought cards specifically better in EDH than they are in other formats. I don't think the banned cards are better or worse in that regard than any of the other Commander-tuned battlecruisers.

_________________
The deck-o-pedia


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 7:16 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
https://imgur.com/a/ip1rj4Q
Griselbrand must now be unbanned.

_________________
ImageImage
ImageImage


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 9:40 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Furthermore, LabMan combo is not inherently stronger in EDH vs. regular magic. Coalition Victory, whether you like it or not, IS.
Could you break that down a little? Literally winning the game cannot be more powerful in a format from my perspective, and both fold to the same removal.

EDIT: Actually CV is susceptible to much more removal than LabMan

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 10:07 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MRHblue wrote:
Could you break that down a little? Literally winning the game cannot be more powerful in a format from my perspective, and both fold to the same removal.

EDIT: Actually CV is susceptible to much more removal than LabMan

You're misreading the sentence. In 60-card magic, to use Coalition Victory, you have to find 5 colors worth of creatures, in addition to lands with each basic type. In EDH, most decks that run CV can just play their commander and meet the requirement, so really all they need to do is count to 8. That makes CV far easier to use in EDH than in 60-card. By comparison, since neither Jace nor Laboratory Maniac can be your general, you have to find one of those naturally (bearing in mind that you can run 4-of in 60 card, thereby making it easier to do) and then draw yourself out, whether that's through a combo or not (probably a combo). That process goes basically the same in EDH vs. 60-card. Therefore the EDH rules make Coalition Victory stronger than it was designed to be and not so LabMan.

paragon_deku wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/ip1rj4Q
Griselbrand must now be unbanned.

I'm going to assume that was meant to be a joke, but NO.

Kemev wrote:
No, it doesn't. Even if you're assuming someone's not floating mana to cast their fresh cards, the table gets a fresh hand to play with. It's a huge table reset, but one way or another Sway's finishing the game.

Except that's not a given. You don't have land, so you're relying on whatever is in your hand to do things, without the benefit of mulligans. So basically it's Upheaval with more BS attached. No thanks.

Kemev wrote:
This honestly doesn't make sense to me. Every new release for the last six years has brought cards specifically better in EDH than they are in other formats. I don't think the banned cards are better or worse in that regard than any of the other Commander-tuned battlecruisers.

I'd like an example from each set. Seriously. I can think of a few, like Serra Ascendant, that you could argue are made OP by the EDH rules (although that might be more than 6 years ago... god I'm old), but I'm hard pressed to come up with 4 or 5 per year. And let's be clear here - they have to exploit some specific part of the EDH rules to qualify (for example, Griselbrand + 40 life = OMG NO).

Also, what has actually changed since these cards were banned that makes things better? And don't say "Other obnoxious sorceries have been printed", because it's just as reasonable to ban those too.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 140 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: