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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 11:57 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
You're misreading the sentence..
Thank you for the clarification. You are speaking of ease to assemble. Understood and agreed.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-08 2:07 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
but the arguments are ultimately gonna depend on subjective examples of what different players deem fair or interactive.

I don't think this is accurate at all. What makes a card or effect more or less interactive is mostly if not entirely objective statements about it. Furthermore, it also depends on what the card itself can do. Most of the bogeyman cards can be and often are used for an effect other than "Pay X mana, win the game". Coalition Victory literally cannot.
Kemev wrote:
For me, a sequence involving "Razaketh, tutor for my combo, win the game" doesn't seem inherently different from "Sway of the Stars, reduce everyone to 7, draw some burn/haste, win the game."
Honestly, we have to be talking past each other at this point, because not only do I fundamentally disagree with this statement, but I also think it is utterly irrelevant.

Granting for the sake of the argument that I agree with you, you're talking about a situation where I'm talking about cards. Razaketh (and many cards like it) can be used as a boring snoozefest "It resolves, so I win" effect, but at its base is just a powerful value engine. Sway and Coalition Victory on the other hand have no place in any deck ever built except to anticlimax the game. They do nothing else. Most other big haymakers depend on synergy with other cards or a strong board state to actually close out the game and are just value plays the rest of the time.

And to mirror what Sid has said, pointing out gigantic uninteractive cards that end the game in a boring fashion is not an argument for unbanning other cards of their ilk, but an argument to ban them. If given the choice between a format with Sway and CV and a format without Expropriate and T&N, I'll choose the latter every time.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 9:59 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I really can't tell if you're being intentionally disingenuous or if you really just have no idea how the combo works.

Go with the second one, as I don't have anybody locally who runs this.

So with that said - break it down for me. How does it win. And you can't say "draw your entire deck" I need specifics of how it does that.

Then, if I need to adjust my previous comment, I will.

I paused my reading of the thread here because I needed to go get my popcorn. I could pretty much write the script for the next couple comments and it's going to be great.

Edit: As I now see, pretty much what we've been talking about in the other thread. Moving on...

Quote:
What I'd like to hear is, do you guys disagree that a typical Commander game has become about big, critical turn plays?

And, do you think that how one of those big turns wins is important?


Question 1 - yes, to an extent. There is still a place for the slow burn beat down deck, if anything we need more of them to pressure the critical turn decks into acting sooner than they want

Question 2 - very much yes. I play commander to feel something, those big turns should be a climactic event, they should be the culmination of some great journey, the cards mentioned (particularly sway of the stars, worldfire and coalition victory) ignore the journey and either reset the game to a worse starting point, end the game on the spot, or do nothing

People like to compare to T&N combo and expropriate, but the difference to me is that while you can win the game with T&N, it can do other interesting things, CV and worldfire just dont do anything else worthwhile.

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Last edited by specter404 on 2019-Jun-10 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 10:10 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
specter404 wrote:
I paused my reading of the thread here because I needed to go get my popcorn. I could pretty much write the script for the next couple comments and it's going to be great.


What?


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 10:36 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
CowsCowsCows wrote:
specter404 wrote:
I paused my reading of the thread here because I needed to go get my popcorn. I could pretty much write the script for the next couple comments and it's going to be great.


What?

They probably assumed it would lead to a flamewar. While I thought it was ridiculous to act as if you're knowledgeable about how a card is totally fine in the format when you don't even know how said card is played, I'm mature enough not to start an internet screaming match over a card game.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 11:34 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
CowsCowsCows wrote:
specter404 wrote:
I paused my reading of the thread here because I needed to go get my popcorn. I could pretty much write the script for the next couple comments and it's going to be great.


What?

I don't advocate of hope for flame wars, I just loved the set up. Carthain knows there more to the labman combo, he may not know exactly, but he knows enough. He offered you the rope to hang yourself with it and you obliged.

It was a well framed and executed debating play.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 1:31 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
specter404 wrote:
I paused my reading of the thread here because I needed to go get my popcorn. I could pretty much write the script for the next couple comments and it's going to be great.


specter404 wrote:
I don't advocate of hope for flame wars, I just loved the set up. Carthain knows there more to the labman combo, he may not know exactly, but he knows enough. He offered you the rope to hang yourself with it and you obliged.

It was a well framed and executed debating play.


I'm still confused how these kinds of comments contribute to the thread in any way


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 2:04 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Carthain knows there more to the labman combo, he may not know exactly, but he knows enough.

I know what the card does, and I was trying to distill how it won down to the essence of it (plus a few extra cards due to comments that others made) .. and then got told "you don't know how it works, there's even more cards involved!" soooo... it just made my point even easier to make. I was intentionally ignoring things like tutors and trying to ignore cards like counterspells to protect the combo -- because it's simpler to compare that way, and as someone above noted, those are tools the CV player can use/benefit from as well as the other combos.

I feel it's such a weird thing for people to suggest that the format is better with these cards in it.

To Kemev and anyone else who would like these cards unbanned: Have you gone back to the announcements of when they were banned, and looked at the reasoning for it? (they often break down the reasoning behind banning card when they do so here.) If not (and it seems like nobody has done that as I've not seen any arguments constructed that way) ... why not?


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 2:14 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
paragon_deku wrote:
They probably assumed it would lead to a flamewar. While I thought it was ridiculous to act as if you're knowledgeable about how a card is totally fine in the format when you don't even know how said card is played, I'm mature enough not to start an internet screaming match over a card game.

CowsCowsCows wrote:
What?


Roughly as much as these really, and also this comment I'm writing right now; adding to the social commentary. This is a casual discussion, not everything has to be exactly on topic. I did of course plan to come back to it and add the rest of my comment once I had continued reading, I felt it pertinent to add my thoughts on the predictability of the conversation before I knew I was right.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 4:43 am 

Joined: 2018-Jul-15 5:17 am
Age: Hatchling
MRHblue wrote:
DegenerateGameGeek wrote:
I nominate Recurring Nightmare. I assert there's sufficient graveyard hate in the format now to safely release it back into the wild.

I am not 100% sure the timing and priority rules really make this a strong factor.


While I agree with you that Recurring Nightmare's near-immunity to any kind of interaction is troublesome, I would argue that it is not as troublesome as it once was. There is a wide range of low-cmc artifacts that can be played in any deck (Tormod's Crypt, Relic Of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage, Crook Of Condemnation, Silent Gravestone, etc), along with an equally wide range of color-specific cards (Rest In Peace, Leyline Of The Void, Nihil Spellbomb, etc) that simply by their presence on the table prevent Recurring Nightmare from being cast until they are dealt with. I believe the RN deck is easy enough to slow down at this point to let the card off the leash.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 5:52 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
DegenerateGameGeek wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
DegenerateGameGeek wrote:
I nominate Recurring Nightmare. I assert there's sufficient graveyard hate in the format now to safely release it back into the wild.

I am not 100% sure the timing and priority rules really make this a strong factor.


While I agree with you that Recurring Nightmare's near-immunity to any kind of interaction is troublesome, I would argue that it is not as troublesome as it once was. There is a wide range of low-cmc artifacts that can be played in any deck (Tormod's Crypt, Relic Of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage, Crook Of Condemnation, Silent Gravestone, etc), along with an equally wide range of color-specific cards (Rest In Peace, Leyline Of The Void, Nihil Spellbomb, etc) that simply by their presence on the table prevent Recurring Nightmare from being cast until they are dealt with. I believe the RN deck is easy enough to slow down at this point to let the card off the leash.


I can see it maybe coming off of the banlist eventually, but I wouldn't really mind if it stayed banned either. You are 100% right that graveyard hate has gotten a lot better since Recurring Nightmare has been banned. But when I look at this card I can't help but think: does black really NEED this card unbanned? I feel like it doesn't really stand to contribute anything of value to the format, and all it really does is make it even easier for black decks to reanimate creatures, which is something they can already do without much trouble. Combine that with it's ability to dodge most removal and I don't see this adding anything terribly interesting to EDH. That being said I am personally in favor of as few bans as possible and compared to the rest of the banlist this seems like one of the safer options to let go.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 7:18 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Recurring Nightmare is the kind of card that SHOULD come off the list. It's an old card that doesn't get played anywhere else, it doesn't outright win games, grind them to a halt or invalidate them, and people are passionate about it. To top it off, graveyard hate has greatly improved over the years, and Wizards has been doing it more frequently recently.

The issue I have with the card, and why I feel it should remained banned (as much as I want to play it outside my cube) is that there are basically two modes to the card. It either sits in your hand because you never cast it into a field where you can't immediately use it, or you loop it over and over - usually until you run out of mana. And the problem I have with the latter is that this is a very repetitive game state to the point that the card is centralizing (not Prime Time where everyone wants a piece, but more Prophet where the game halts until it's dealt with). And let's be honest, black doesn't need another way to do what it already does best when that way is usually better than everything legal. My Karador deck can loop creatures in and out of the yard so much that it may as well have RN. So for me RN just becomes the new plan A. But now suddenly decks don't have to devote as many slots to do the same thing, because RN does it with one card. And then of course, there's the whole timing restriction issue.


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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 11:23 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
cryogen wrote:
It either sits in your hand because you never cast it into a field where you can't immediately use it, or you loop it over and over - usually until you run out of mana. And the problem I have with the latter is that this is a very repetitive game state to the point that the card is centralizing

Recurring Nightmare: this card is extremely powerful for its mana cost. It has a reusable effect that cannot be stopped with enchantment removal, and lets you abuse comes-into-play abilities repeatedly. More, if your graveyard is sufficiently stocked, it's entirely possible that once you draw Recur it is the only spell you'll want to play for the rest of the game. This makes for degenerate games, so we're giving it the axe.

This, it seems, has not changed in the last 10 years.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 12:31 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
Genuine question, how is recurring nightmare immune to enchantment hate? Can't the main ability only be done at sorcery speed?
EDIT: I went back and thought about the creatures that give mana directly or indirectly on ETB and realize now how easily it could be chained as soon as it's played.

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 Post subject: Re: "Unban card X... I'd really like to play with it!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 12:41 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Because you play it. If it resolves Whether the RN ETB'ing triggers anything or not, the caster of RN gets priority first. They can activate RN's return clause, which along with sacrificing a creature returns RN to its owners hand as a cost. That can't be responded to. So if RN resolves, it can be put back into its owners hand literally before anyone can do anything about it. Then the ability resolves and you get the target creature from your graveyard onto the battlefield.

EDIT: I messed it up, the above is correct now

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