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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 3:42 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. Why not just start a format called "Battlecruiser" with an extensive banlist and an explicit vision that caters to exactly what you are looking for? EDH has evolved (for better or for worse) beyond its humble beginnings.

1) What makes you think that would turn out any differently?
2) Just because people use a saw like a hammer doesn't mean the makers of the saw should stop trying to make a good saw.

Yes, the format has evolved from it's original beginnings -- but that doesn't mean that navigating where the format should be going should change at all. It's that guiding that made the format as popular as it is. Without it, you'd probably get a vastly different format (which some people have tried to do with cEDH.)


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 6:00 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
I have no problem with where the format is at present. Suggesting a Battlecruiser format was more to address individuals like Gath who believe the format is in a substantially worse place than it was in the first few years after its inception. Old School was created as a format for nostalgic reasons, though I suspect it also has to do a little bit with exclusivity and the perceived status that goes along with it.

For those wanting that early days of EDH experience, I feel like a separate format with a large and well curated banlist is an easier way to recapture the glory days that once allegedly existed. Selfishly, giving these individuals a new place to play would mean I have to endure less bitching and moaning about a format I truly enjoy in its current incarnation.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 6:12 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
I have no problem with where the format is at present. Suggesting a Battlecruiser format was more to address individuals like Gath who believe the format is in a substantially worse place than it was in the first few years after its inception. Old School was created as a format for nostalgic reasons, though I suspect it also has to do a little bit with exclusivity and the perceived status that goes along with it.

For those wanting that early days of EDH experience, I feel like a separate format with a large and well curated banlist is an easier way to recapture the glory days that once allegedly existed.


I've wanted to see the format split up for years now but it seems no one is really interested in that idea, even the CEDH people who clearly want a banlist for competitive. I'm assuming the big reason for that is people think it will destroy the format entirely because of a fracturing playerbase, but if things like oathbreaker and TL can take off it's probably doable, you just need someone with pull and eyeballs on screens to promote it.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 7:07 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-08 10:59 pm
Age: Hatchling
Unless WotC starts consistently printing effective tutor/combo punishment across multiple colors in the Commander products, I think the RC will, sooner or later, be forced to take steps to keep the format high-variance and casual. As Sheldon observed, combo is so strong and has so few answers that it'll continue to become increasingly prevalent in the LGS environment, which poses a real threat to the RC's vision for the format. Right now, the kind of battlecruiser aggro at the heart of the format has punishing answers readily available in every single color, but when it comes to tutoring for your combo piece or wincon and winning after 15 minutes of gameplay, how many answers besides counterspells really exist?

A fundamental change to searching libraries (perhaps a replacement effect which replaces a search with "Look at the top N cards of your library"?) could aid this immensely while still permitting tutors/ramp/etc to be played. This would have the added benefit of cutting back on agonizingly long library searches and constant shuffling, which are major problems in a multiplayer format. I'm not sure if this is the answer, but it feels as though something will eventually have to be done, as the direction in which the format is trending (efficient plays, lowering average CMCs, comboing out to win rather than to end a 2-hour game) runs counter to the vision they've laid out in the new philosophy doc. This isn't a problem for those who are able to locate good private playgroups, but it's a big issue for LGS players like myself.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 8:33 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
VoidableFall wrote:
Unless WotC starts consistently printing effective tutor/combo punishment across multiple colors in the Commander products, I think the RC will, sooner or later, be forced to take steps to keep the format high-variance and casual. As Sheldon observed, combo is so strong and has so few answers that it'll continue to become increasingly prevalent in the LGS environment, which poses a real threat to the RC's vision for the format. Right now, the kind of battlecruiser aggro at the heart of the format has punishing answers readily available in every single color, but when it comes to tutoring for your combo piece or wincon and winning after 15 minutes of gameplay, how many answers besides counterspells really exist?

A fundamental change to searching libraries (perhaps a replacement effect which replaces a search with "Look at the top N cards of your library"?) could aid this immensely while still permitting tutors/ramp/etc to be played. This would have the added benefit of cutting back on agonizingly long library searches and constant shuffling, which are major problems in a multiplayer format. I'm not sure if this is the answer, but it feels as though something will eventually have to be done, as the direction in which the format is trending (efficient plays, lowering average CMCs, comboing out to win rather than to end a 2-hour game) runs counter to the vision they've laid out in the new philosophy doc. This isn't a problem for those who are able to locate good private playgroups, but it's a big issue for LGS players like myself.


I'd much rather just add 30 combo cards to the ban list than modify tutors. Tutors are only as strong as the cards you are allowed to fetch with them.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 9:55 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
It makes way more sense to ban the tutors than what's being tutored for, otherwise the banlist will continue to grow with whatever people are replacing their former targets with. Wizards is not going to stop printing powerful cards.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 10:04 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
I'd much rather just add 30 combo cards to the ban list than modify tutors. Tutors are only as strong as the cards you are allowed to fetch with them.

Wait, what?

The value in a tutor is in consistency. A demonic tutor is a second copy of any card in your deck. Combos don’t go off with any regularity without tutors. If your problem is combos, banning or modifying tutors makes them difficult to assemble. Once you’ve seen 25 cards in your deck, the chances of assembling a specific two card combo without tutors is only about 6%.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 1:20 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
I'd much rather just add 30 combo cards to the ban list than modify tutors. Tutors are only as strong as the cards you are allowed to fetch with them.

Wait, what?

The value in a tutor is in consistency. A demonic tutor is a second copy of any card in your deck. Combos don’t go off with any regularity without tutors. If your problem is combos, banning or modifying tutors makes them difficult to assemble. Once you’ve seen 25 cards in your deck, the chances of assembling a specific two card combo without tutors is only about 6%.


and everyone around here likes to wave the "this card has fair uses too!" argument in my face all the time and it applies here better than anywhere, tutors have far more interesting and fair uses than the combo cards people fetch with them. In fact from my observations over the years the most common entry into an arms race is the great mistake of telling yourself "it's just a backup wincon" until you don't feel like losing and go tutor for it directly, then over time it warps the deck entirely and you add more and more tutors for that SINGLE CARD because that's how you win consistently, take the card you tutor for away and your deck is no longer centered around one card anymore even with all the tutors in it.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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