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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 7:43 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
Yes, it's a Legacy deck. One that will get trounced off of 99% of competitive tables, in the same way that a Stax deck that completely locks everyone out of the game and gets the person arch enemy'd on sight is an EDH deck.

Which is all that we're saying. It conforms to what is legal for that format, thus it's a <format> deck. As you just admitted, the competitiveness of it isn't important at all.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 8:59 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
kirkusjones wrote:
Yes, it's a Legacy deck. One that will get trounced off of 99% of competitive tables, in the same way that a Stax deck that completely locks everyone out of the game and gets the person arch enemy'd on sight is an EDH deck.

Which is all that we're saying. It conforms to what is legal for that format, thus it's a <format> deck. As you just admitted, the competitiveness of it isn't important at all.


So if I asked you if I could play my Vintage deck, what would you think of? Tarpan/20 kavus and a dream or something else? I mean I have a 1 land belcher deck which has power etc. and I still lose to probably 60% of the Vintage decks I play against. But I don't want to spend lots of money on a deck that I am not going to bring to a tournament any time soon.

That is likely going to be the decision of several people. Yes I could build a Stax deck for EDH but unless I already have the cards, am I really going to spend that much just to piss people off?

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 9:22 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
What are we arguing at this point though? I've lost track.

Last I knew we were arguing whether something's truly a Legacy or Vintage deck (even if it's bad) and it appears the answer is yes?

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 9:43 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
I think I've been circling the point I've been trying to make, just not doing it well. I truly think it comes down to perception. The ever elusive "spirit of the format". To me, legacy has meant top tier decks and competition in a tournament format. Ever since I took my Shuffleufugus deck to a tournament and learned I would have been better off converting my entry fee to nickels and flushing them down the toilet. I'd been playing for about eight years at that point. That was 15+ years ago.

TL;DR: I submit to you that player perception does more to define a format than the banlist or the cardpool. Apologies it took a while to get here.

Edited to fix errors and context.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


Last edited by kirkusjones on 2019-Jul-04 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 9:59 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
I think I've been circling the point I've been trying to make, just not doing it well. I truly think it comes down to perception. The ever elusive "spirit of the format". To me, legacy has always meant top tier decks and competition in a tournament format. That is the spirit of Legacy to me ever since I took my Shuffleufugus deck to a tournament and learned I would have been better off converting my entry fee to nickels and flushing them down the toilet. I'd been playing for about eight years at that point.

TL;DR: I submit to you that player perception does more to define a format than the banlist or the cardpool. Apologies it took a while to get here.

Ok, I think we're getting way off track then for a discussion about EDH. I don't disagree that tournament viability shapes competitive formats a lot ... I'm not sure how to weigh what you're arguing with, say, Standard, which I think we can agree is defined paramount by its cardpool. And that makes me think we're getting way too abstract.

All I was doing earlier was responding to someone describing EDH like the entire summary is being able to play all the old fun cards. There is a format where the point is being able to play literally everything, and it's not EDH -- it's Vintage. It's the format where even the power 9 are merely Restricted; the only cards banned are Conspiracies, Ante cards, the game's 2 physical dexterity cards, and Shahrazad. If you want a format defined by being able to play all the old cards to the point you consider it a problem to have a banlist, you want Vintage, not EDH.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 10:19 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ok, actually, maybe I'm missing part of your point:

Is it that in Vintage you don't get to play cards unless they're competitively viable, but in EDH since competition is the point you can go ahead and play a goofy Atog tribal? Because I'd agree, but that comes out of wanting to have fun varied decks where competition isn't the point.

Inkeyes22 was presenting it like having a banlist is awful for EDH — but under a poor description of EDH's purpose — and I wanted to respond to that.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 11:11 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
You got it, Spacemonaut. And you are definitely right about Standard being defined by the cardpool.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 2:00 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
Ok, actually, maybe I'm missing part of your point:

Is it that in Vintage you don't get to play cards unless they're competitively viable, but in EDH since competition is the point you can go ahead and play a goofy Atog tribal? Because I'd agree, but that comes out of wanting to have fun varied decks where competition isn't the point.

Inkeyes22 was presenting it like having a banlist is awful for EDH — but under a poor description of EDH's purpose — and I wanted to respond to that.


To be clear I did not day having a ban list was bad, I said it was too long for a casual playing with friends format where nothing I'd on the line. If everyone is playing solely to hang out or enjoy some crazy interactions why do we ban cards unless it is absolutely necessary? Now I am sure some people may think that is what the RC has done, I disagree. Everybody will draw that line in the sand just a little bit differently.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 2:10 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
kirkusjones wrote:
my Soldier of Fortune/Psychogenic Probe deck would consistenIy lose against Survival toolbox, burn and basically any other deck I sat across from.

A bit off topic, but I brought the following deck to a couple of extended events back in the day;
4 x Psychogenic Probe
4 x Bitter Ordeal
4 x Lotus Bloom
4 x Lantern of Insight
4 x Bottle Gnomes
4 x Shred Memory
4 x Augur of Skulls
4 x Damnation
4 x Beseech the Queen

16 x Swamp
4 x Ghost Quarter
4 x Barren Moor

Sideboard had discard spells and Extirpate, and some additional removal, including 4 copies of Eradicate... I really went all-in on the theme there.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 2:13 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Inkeyes22 wrote:
To be clear I did not day having a ban list was bad, I said it was too long for a casual playing with friends format where nothing I'd on the line.

If EDH was solely played with small groups of friends, I might agree with you.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-05 2:30 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Inkeyes22 wrote:
To be clear I did not day having a ban list was bad, I said it was too long for a casual playing with friends format where nothing I'd on the line.

If EDH was solely played with small groups of friends, I might agree with you.

EDH does come off as a format wherein "small groups of friends" are the target demographic. Admittedly though, it could just be that the dividing line between "Well maybe these people need the card banned" and "Well maybe this format isn't for those people" is less arbitrary than it looks.

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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-05 4:42 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MMLgamer wrote:
EDH does come off as a format wherein "small groups of friends" are the target demographic.

Small insular groups have little need for an official banned list - they will sort themselves out pretty quickly as to what is and is not fair game. Those of us that play at the LGS, however, really DO need a banned list, and I would argue that a less minimalist approach is better for that situation. This is not to say I want everything banned, simply that I don't see having the banned list as short as possible as the primary goal - I think things like Iona and Vorinclex should absolutely be on the banned list, even if they aren't definitively overpowered or format-warping, and I think Spacemonaut did a great job of articulating why earlier in this very thread. Then if the small insular groups feel like unbanning those cards for their group because that's their kind of "fun", they can do that without the rando crowd being inundated with douchey cards.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-07 5:07 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:

Is it that in Vintage you don't get to play cards unless they're competitively viable, but in EDH since competition is the point you can go ahead and play a goofy Atog tribal? Because I'd agree, but that comes out of wanting to have fun varied decks where competition isn't the point.


Here is where I start to have a problem, because lately, you CAN'T play goofy tribal anymore. When I started playing edh 10 years ago the worst thing you usually had to worry about was the blue player and the classic douche move of Hinder/Tunnel Vision. Ever since about Avacyn Restored the power level of edh has gone completely off the freaking rails. That set alone you had mono red kiki combo become a thing along with mikaeus/triskelion, deadeye/pali, craterhoof and avacyn herself for board protection and things have only gotten more insane over the years.

It's gotten to the point where literally every single deck of any color combination has access to some kind of 1-2 card easy mode instant win condition. Now they could be board/general dependant but the fact that every deck can kill without allowing for a full rotation of sorcery speed answers has irrevocably altered what the game used to be. The "Battlecruiser" part of the format has warped and twisted into what I see far more commonly "explosive anti-climactic win". No longer do people get into long drawn out slugfests with the lead trading back and forth, now you just ramp balls and cast your free win spell.

Torment of Hailfire, Aetherflux Reservoir, Genesis Wave, Omniscience Mikaeus the Unhallowed, Paradox Engine, Dramatic/Scepter, etc. etc. etc. there are so many broken swingy spells that with all the fast mana around I'm shocked games ever get past turns 3-5 anymore.

I suppose this is the inevitable fate of every format, either to be solved and stagnate or get powercreeped to the point it becomes unrecognizable but I can't help but want this crap excised from the format when people seem so hellbent on taking the easy way out.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 11:15 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-08 10:59 pm
Age: Hatchling
I haven't been around for anywhere near that long, but I do agree that there's a palpable sense of the casual, battlecruiser side of the format getting squeezed out. Partly, I think this can be attributed to the fact that the biggest online standard-bearers for the format, the Command Zone, are major advocates for a more competitive (but not cEDH) level of play where every deck runs 5+ spot removal, 5+ wipes, etc. I enjoy their content and have a lot of respect for what they've done for the community. Unfortunately though, from the perspective of someone who really loves battlecruiser EDH, I think they're probably not the greatest influence on the format.

I'm heartened that the RC seems to agree that the increasingly competitive nature of the format is a concern. While I have no problem with cEDH or Spikes, the reality is that every other format already exists for Spikes, while EDH is the only format where I can walk into a game store having built for flavor or goofiness and reasonably expect to have a good time. The RC should aggressively push back on the slide towards a more competitive format, and encourage cEDH to break off and formalize themselves as a separate format, so that players who enjoy cEDH still have an outlet.

Should the competitive trend continue, it'll likely end up necessary to seriously look at restricting tutors in some way, as they're by far the biggest culprits in undermining the high-variance, random nature of the format.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 1:52 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. Why not just start a format called "Battlecruiser" with an extensive banlist and an explicit vision that caters to exactly what you are looking for? EDH has evolved (for better or for worse) beyond its humble beginnings.

While there is no metric that could determine what the majority of the playerbase enjoys more, a new format with a clear, explicit vision might be an easier and more effective way to get the play experience you and others are looking to regain. Think of it like the Old School format, but with less dick measuring.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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