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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-01 9:11 pm 

Joined: 2012-May-21 2:31 pm
Age: Drake
papa_funk wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
There's a grade of cards like Iona though that, despite not being an existential threat, seem to be net un-fun on games they show up in, and I don't understand why that grade isn't banned

I'm curious what card you lump into that grade other than Iona. Iona seems pretty unique, so I'm always interested what other cards people bucket her with.

I would also include cards like Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. Sheoldred, Whispering One and Urabrask the Hidden are annoying for sure, but don't stop people from actually being able to play (for the most part.)


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-02 9:01 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Not that i'm advocating for a ban of Winter Orb, but it's really just mindboggling it's even legal. We have a format with loosely (often to detriment, imo) guidelines and rules that blatantly advertises it as a social format that won't ban cards for power level, balance, etc, and that we are trying to create memorable games and is very obviously geared towards splashy 6 drops. Why even allow Winter Orb? Stasis? Static? Just wild.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 12:07 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I suspect it's the same reason that Armageddon/Ravages of War are legal -- some people like that kind of game. Plus, those cards are pretty blatant at what the intent is. It seems a bunch of cards that are banned along the same line (Sylvan Primordial & Sundering Titan) are ones that look like they'd be fair, but aren't. As it's somewhat harder for people to evaluate it gets the ban to be clear.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 5:02 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
I suspect it's the same reason that Armageddon/Ravages of War are legal -- some people like that kind of game. Plus, those cards are pretty blatant at what the intent is. It seems a bunch of cards that are banned along the same line (Sylvan Primordial & Sundering Titan) are ones that look like they'd be fair, but aren't. As it's somewhat harder for people to evaluate it gets the ban to be clear.


Emphasis mine.

Why would Sylvan or Sundering be unclear? I mean, Sundering Titan is big, but he is there to blow up stuff, Sylvan Primordial might not be obvious at first glance that if they have nothing but creatures and lands, you are hitting a land. But even still, they were not banned because people didn't know they were strong, they were banned because people were cloning/bouncing/reanimating etc. them.

To be clear, I don't think they should be banned. I can imagine someone hearing about this cool new format where they can play all the older fun stuff. Person buys or dusts off one of those cards and everybody gangs up on them cause they are playing a banned card, in casual!?!?!? How dare they not abide by this rule in casual land that they knew nothing about. We should obviously never play with this pariah for they blew up one of my 12 forests! If you are not playing for prizes, I think the ban list should be much shorter.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 8:27 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
If you are not playing for prizes, I think the ban list should be much shorter.


and I would argue the complete opposite because people actually playing a casual low power deck shouldn't have to put up with some rando's BS stax deck that said person is too socially oblivious to realize everyone wants to junk punch him for.

My problem with the ban list as it stands is simple: Innovation in the format is dead. For every color combo there is some minimum effort 2 card instant win/lock trash that any braindead moron could work out and slap in their goodstuff deck with basically zero repercussions. It gets even worse when you have people on the "Commander Advisory Board" like Josh Lee Kwai on Command Zone encouraging people run the typical goodstuff crap every time a new commander comes out that can abuse it (Kykar being a prime example, yes everyone knows Aetherflux Reservoir / Paradox Engine are good FFS it's to the point where they're in every deck that supports them) the format loses more and more actual innovators and gains legions of people looking around going "ah, best card, run" and it works because these cards are far too powerful to be running loose in the format.

At some point "This card is in every deck that can use it because it's the best option by a wide margin" should actually be considered banworthy. General ubiquity simply isn't a good enough indicator any more because every deck archetype has their own individual ubiquitous cards that are equally as impactful as other deck archetypes and "but everyone can run it" isn't a decent excuse when decks that don't want to are at a massive disadvantage.

If I don't run a table wipe combo and everyone else does, I will probably never win a single game playing with those people and it doesn't matter that I don't want to play that way because you don't get to be picky with your pods at an LGS.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 8:50 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The definition of Commander though is not “the format where you get to play all the older cards.” If you want that you're looking for Vintage instead. Anyone coming to Commander thinking that's the entire summary will have been misinformed and will be disappointed.

The definition of Commander is very, very different to that, and much more narrow and focused: ‘That vision [of EDH] is to create variable, interactive, and epic multiplayer games where memories are made, to foster the social nature of the format, and to underscore that competition is not the format’s primary goal. This is summarized as “Create games that everyone will love to remember, not the ones you'd like to forget.”’ (from the Philosophy document.) It is ‘designed to promote social games of magic’ and ‘to help [the global community] enjoy a different kind of magic.’ (EDH rule 1: Philosophy.)

Allowing almost all of the vintage card list helps us achieve many of these goals, while the banlist removes the exceptions that would be disruptive to those goals. When your goals are those I listed having the banlist makes total sense, and since “let people play all the old cards” is not a goal in and of itself, having the banlist we have or expanding it doesn't in and of itself disrupt any of EDH's goals.

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 11:08 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Vintage is not the place where you can play all the old cards. Technically that is correct, but the vast card pool being diverse doesn't translate into diversity of utilization in decklists, at least ones that win with any consistency. Sure, I can build a Battle of Wits vintage deck, but shops and dredge are going to roflstomp me AND eat my lunch 999 times out of 1000. Legacy is much the same. Trust me, even in the wild west days of legacy, before the internet, and by extension, Star City, promoted homogenization of the format, my Soldier of Fortune/Psychogenic Probe deck would consistenIy lose against Survival toolbox, burn and basically any other deck I sat across from. I would still argue that EDH represents both the most diverse and deeply utilized card pool in the game.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 12:27 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
Vintage is not the place where you can play all the old cards. Technically that is correct, but the vast card pool being diverse doesn't translate into diversity of utilization in decklists, at least ones that win with any consistency. Sure, I can build a Battle of Wits vintage deck, but shops and dredge are going to roflstomp me AND eat my lunch 999 times out of 1000. Legacy is much the same. Trust me, even in the wild west days of legacy, before the internet, and by extension, Star City, promoted homogenization of the format, my Soldier of Fortune/Psychogenic Probe deck would consistenIy lose against Survival toolbox, burn and basically any other deck I sat across from. I would still argue that EDH represents both the most diverse and deeply utilized card pool in the game.

You're not wrong, and "getting to play all those forgotten old cards that you'd otherwise be unable to play" is certainly a positive aspect of the format, but it shouldn't be a defining feature of the format. Because once you do, I get to argue that <banned card> should be unbanned because this is the only place I can play it and we should be able to play as many cards as possible. (Hell, I've used this argument on behalf of Library more than once.)


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 1:38 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
Why would Sylvan or Sundering be unclear? I mean, Sundering Titan is big, but he is there to blow up stuff

People were using them to try to combat land ramp. They don't work well that way, and tend to end up hitting other people as casualties. Just because that's clear to you and me, doesn't mean that's clear to the majority of players.

Inkeyes22 wrote:
I can imagine someone hearing about this cool new format where they can play all the older fun stuff. Person buys or dusts off one of those cards and everybody gangs up on them cause they are playing a banned card, in casual!?!?!? How dare they not abide by this rule in casual land that they knew nothing about.

There's so many things wrong with your example here. As noted by others, Commander shouldn't be introduced as a "format where they can play all the older fun stuff." That's not the goal of the format at all and anyone who introduces someone else to the format that way is to blame for any feel-bad situations caused by it. Then there's that player's fault for not looking into the format more (to see if there's a ban/restricted list.)

Also, "casual" is usually where you find more house-bans than anything else. So it shouldn't be a surprise that people ban things for various reasons when playing "casual." I've played in metas where countermagic was banned, or Circles of Protection were banned.
kirkusjones wrote:
Vintage is not the place where you can play all the old cards. Technically that is correct, but the vast card pool being diverse doesn't translate into diversity of utilization in decklists, at least ones that win with any consistency.

Don't mix the format with the competitive version of the format. Sure, Vintage is where you can play (almost) any card. Competitive Vintage is verrrry different. As that changes the 'can play' from 'allowed to play' into 'allowed to play and still have a good chance at winning' which are vastly differently things.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 2:57 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Vintage, Legacy, Modern and Standard are all competitive formats. The Vintage cardpool and the intent of the format aren't the same. Playing Shrine Tribal is technically Vintage, but I'd say it fits way better under the general umbrella of casual or kitchen table magic.

Edited to make my point more clear.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 3:17 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
What I was saying was is there's a format which is definitionally about playing all the old cards, and that's Vintage. That's not about competitive viability, that's about format definition. It's why they merely Restrict cards in Vintage that get outright Banned in Legacy. If we're applying viability that's still not EDH, loads of cards are still unviable here, incidentally many of which you couldn't play in vintage either.

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 4:32 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
Vintage, Legacy, Modern and Standard are all competitive formats.

That doesn't negate my point at all... especially when starting from the standpoint of "format where you can play all your old cool cards." Because that certainly doesn't describe commander.

Casually, I can create a deck and say it's a "Vintage" deck -- simply because I'm playing one or more cards that aren't legal in any other format. Which means I can play a Tarpan in it. How good is it? Depends on what your goal is.

Some people may infer that a "Vintage deck" means it's intended to be competitive in that format, but that's not a given at all -- especially when we're talking about causal and/or kitchen table magic.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 6:38 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
My point is that a format's cardpool doesn't necessarily match with the intent behind a format's creation. There was a longer post, but my phone and this site are currently having a bit of a spat.

Many have called for a clear division between competitive EDH and casual. The same should hold true for Legacy, Vintage, etc. Star City and its ilk didn't blow up the popularity of legacy on the backs of Tarpan decks. It did it with maybe two-three hundred cards out of tens of thousands. Please see the quote in my signature, it sums up my point pretty well.

Edit - maybe perception is a better word than intent? I feel like if you asked a random Magic player (with some experience of formats) to name a Modern or Legacy deck they wouldn't rattle off a casual treefolk list. They'd come up with Storm or Humans or some other iconic/popular, powerful deck.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 7:18 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Okay, so if I want to build a treefolk deck, and I make it legacy legal -- is it somehow not a legacy deck simply because it's not competitive?


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 Post subject: Re: A General EDH Survey
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 7:23 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Yes, it's a Legacy deck. One that will get trounced off of 99% of competitive tables, in the same way that a Stax deck that completely locks everyone out of the game and gets the person arch enemy'd on sight is an EDH deck.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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