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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 3:24 pm 
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To be honest, I don't get the backlash at all. Two incredibly annoying and oppressive cards got banned, and the most overdue unban in the history of Magic has finally been implemented. I guess kirkus was right: some people want nothing in life but to be an old man yelling at a fucking cloud.

Regarding the servant unban, the logic against it is as bad as it always has been. Anyone who intentionally plays Servant + Iona or Servant + Ugin knows full well what they are doing and is either intentionally being a dick or is in a meta where that kind of thing is ok. Ergo, there's either no problem or the problem isn't Servant. Grindstone combo is bad in a multiplayer format, and color hosers are just awful cards in general. Any idiot who tries abusing Servant now is going to find out pretty quickly that it's a waste of time, while myself and everyone else who actually enjoys playing the format the way it was designed will find a small interaction here and there.

For the love of Urza, Painter's Servant is not special. It's not like say Tangle Wire where it's presence inherently makes games less enjoyable. The combos it forms are never both powerful and efficient at the same time, and the vast majority of them involve cards that no reasonable human being has any business running in any deck, ever. It's damn near impossible to go off with it by accident. Its effect is so narrow and specific that it has zero chance of becoming a format stable or warping it strategically. It was originally banned for bad reasons, and over time it has come to fit those reasons less and less.

RonB wrote:
Is iona actually worse than painter? Dont get me wrong, I've been turn 3 iona'd thanks to kalia. feels real bad, but I've never played against painter combos, anyone mind enlightening me?
The only actually "good" Painter combo is combining it with Grindstone to instantly mill one opponent to death. It was amazing in Legacy before getting banned, because you had 4 copies of both cards in a 60-card deck alongside all the deck thinning and whatnot that that format has, and because you only had to deal with one opponent. All advantages that get surgically removed if the combo appears in an EDH deck, where they both are just 2 dead cards 90% of the time.

EDIT: What the hell is wrong with Oona combo? Oh no, you get X faerie tokens instead of less than X! The world is over!

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 3:37 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
To be honest, I don't get the backlash at all.

I imagine there are also a lot of players like me, who are quietly mildly pleased.


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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 3:39 pm 
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Location: Danbury, CT
NMS wrote:
RonB wrote:
I've never played against painter combos, anyone mind enlightening me?

Grindstone is a well-known combo with it that kills one player per turn. Other than that, cards like Deathgrip, Gloom, and Hibernation are probably the nastiest. Edit: also Llawan,.


Grindstone is the best known, 'cause it was the basis for a pretty good Legacy deck for a while (or at least until Sensei's Top got banned in Legacy... I dunno if it's still good). It doesn't add much that you couldn't already do better with Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace.

For EDH, the most obnoxious is probably Ugin, the Spirit Dragon... you can -0 to exile all lands (and tokens, etc). Other ways to go after lands are the build-a-Upheaval with Hibernation (like NMS said), or Washout. Dream Halls gets spicier too, but it's a global effect.

I don't think most of the other color hate cards are all that bad. One thing that has changed since Painter's Servant's been banned is the uncounterable removal's gotten quite a bit better. Life Grip's not gonna save your soft lock from Supreme Verdict or Abrupt Decay.

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 3:42 pm 
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I type too slow apparently, 'cause I just got ninja'd by like 8 posts.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
EDIT: What the hell is wrong with Oona combo? Oh no, you get X faerie tokens instead of less than X! The world is over!


Tbh I forget that Oona even makes faeries... usually her controller's out to deck you.

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 3:59 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
NMS wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
To be honest, I don't get the backlash at all.

I imagine there are also a lot of players like me, who are quietly mildly pleased.

I concur, these are two bans I'm quite happy with.

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 4:15 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
TheOmegaBear09 wrote:
I don't agree with your point that Painter causing the game to end means that it's less oppressive. There are many situations where the game just randomly-ending-out-of-nowhere is SO disheartening. It makes people not want to play the game anymore, and I certainly have seen it happen where the game quickly devolves into "who can get their combo out the fastest" among playgroups, which heavily discouraged new players (especially ones who were new to the game, not just to the group) from joining.

Are you suggesting that having the game suddenly end, of which painter isn't even in the top 5 for doing that, is more disheartening to a new player than: "Hey, just sit there and watch us play for a while, maybe you'll draw an out right?"

It's literal torture. You're locked up, every turn your soul dies a little more as you draw another land, or a spell you can't cast, or a spell you can cast but doesn't help you and an hour later it feels like an eternity as you are just praying for the sweet release of death.



If you're curious my top 5 end the game combos in no particular order:
Lab Man
Mike and Trike
Teferi's Knowledge Pool
Karn Mycosynth
Flash Hulk
Honorable mention to anything that involves Reveillark and Karmic Guide

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 4:17 pm 
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Joined: 2019-Mar-29 7:17 am
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specter404 wrote:
NMS wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
To be honest, I don't get the backlash at all.

I imagine there are also a lot of players like me, who are quietly mildly pleased.

I concur, these are two bans I'm quite happy with.
Same. As is the rest of my playgroup.


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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 9:05 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
as for obnoxious things you can do with painter's servant that haven't yet been mentioned, for reference: Nature's Wrath, Magnetic Mountain, Thelon's Curse, Drought, Light of Day, Chill, Douse, High Seas, Justice, Royal Decree, Wrath of Marit Lage, Bereavement, Dystopia, Leshrac's Sigil, Putrefaction, Gloom.

there are probably more but that's everything I could find with a quick search, I still don't think letting this thing back into the format is in any way a good idea. Is there anything positive at all about letting PS back in? cuz I don't see it.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 9:23 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
as for obnoxious things you can do with painter's servant that haven't yet been mentioned, for reference: Nature's Wrath, Magnetic Mountain, Thelon's Curse, Drought, Light of Day, Chill, Douse, High Seas, Justice, Royal Decree, Wrath of Marit Lage, Bereavement, Dystopia, Leshrac's Sigil, Putrefaction, Gloom.

there are probably more but that's everything I could find with a quick search, I still don't think letting this thing back into the format is in any way a good idea. Is there anything positive at all about letting PS back in? cuz I don't see it.

Why would anybody run PS alongside any of those above cards? They’re all horrible cards in their own right, and when they’re not horrible they’re obnoxious enough with or without Servant. It’s a red herring to focus on what the card could do in a vacuum instead of what the card will do when piloted by smart players with realistic motivations.

And what will it do? Aside from fitting in theme decks or scarecrow tribal and whatnot, there’s one simple answer: it’s the ultimate “I need a hero” card. It does nothing on its own, so the best way to ensure it pulls its own weight is to put it in a deck where it synergizes with the general.

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 9:31 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
as for obnoxious things you can do with painter's servant that haven't yet been mentioned, for reference: Nature's Wrath, Magnetic Mountain, Thelon's Curse, Drought, Light of Day, Chill, Douse, High Seas, Justice, Royal Decree, Wrath of Marit Lage, Bereavement, Dystopia, Leshrac's Sigil, Putrefaction, Gloom.

there are probably more but that's everything I could find with a quick search, I still don't think letting this thing back into the format is in any way a good idea. Is there anything positive at all about letting PS back in? cuz I don't see it.

Why would anybody run PS alongside any of those above cards? They’re all horrible cards in their own right, and when they’re not horrible they’re obnoxious enough with or without Servant. It’s a red herring to focus on what the card could do in a vacuum instead of what the card will do when piloted by smart players with realistic motivations.

And what will it do? Aside from fitting in theme decks or scarecrow tribal and whatnot, there’s one simple answer: it’s the ultimate “I need a hero” card. It does nothing on its own, so the best way to ensure it pulls its own weight is to put it in a deck where it synergizes with the general.


this is a fantastic way to shut down an argument without ever actually legitimately answering the question, you should run for office or something.

Question stands, what specifically, if anything does painter's servant add to the format in a positive manner right at this very moment?

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 10:09 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I did actually answer the question, but since you're purposely being disingenuous and doing the very thing you accuse me of I guess I'll be explicit instead of implicit.

Painter's Servant has no use in the format except in decks where it synergizes with the general. That is what it adds to the format, being a cool synergy piece to a variety of generals. The majority of those interactions are perfectly fair and fine (Rith, the Awakener, Eight-and-a-Half Tails, Oona, Queen of the Fae) while the few that aren't are all generals that nobody who actually likes fun should be running anyway. The only exception to what I just said is Teysa, Orzhov Scion, which while irritating is by no means the end of the world or even that much stronger than say a Grave Pact effect in the same deck.

All that being said, I think your question is a red herring in the first place as the "risk" of unbanning Servant is effectively zero. If Segovian Leviathan were on the banned list, nobody would be asking what unbanning it would add to the format, they would just point out that it being banned is accomplishing nothing. That has IMO been roughly the deal with Servant, and as the overall power level of the format has gone up over the years it's only become more and more so.

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 11:01 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I did actually answer the question, but since you're purposely being disingenuous and doing the very thing you accuse me of I guess I'll be explicit instead of implicit.

Painter's Servant has no use in the format except in decks where it synergizes with the general. That is what it adds to the format, being a cool synergy piece to a variety of generals. The majority of those interactions are perfectly fair and fine (Rith, the Awakener, Eight-and-a-Half Tails, Oona, Queen of the Fae) while the few that aren't are all generals that nobody who actually likes fun should be running anyway. The only exception to what I just said is Teysa, Orzhov Scion, which while irritating is by no means the end of the world or even that much stronger than say a Grave Pact effect in the same deck.

All that being said, I think your question is a red herring in the first place as the "risk" of unbanning Servant is effectively zero. If Segovian Leviathan were on the banned list, nobody would be asking what unbanning it would add to the format, they would just point out that it being banned is accomplishing nothing. That has IMO been roughly the deal with Servant, and as the overall power level of the format has gone up over the years it's only become more and more so.


8-and-a-half and oona are both wrist-slittingly miserable decks by themselves, I wouldn't say adding PS to them is a good thing, and teysa already had Darkest Hour so it doesn't really change much.

I also completely disagree with the idea of "power creep exists, so unban things that don't fit the new power level" if anything we should be striving to maintain the power level the format was made for rather than just allow it to Crazy Train it's way into the stratosphere.

The thing I don't understand though is why miserable cards only being played by miserable people is somehow a legit argument for ignoring any of the bad things PS does.
Quote:
Anyone who intentionally plays Servant + Iona or Servant + Ugin knows full well what they are doing


how is that any different than Iona by herself? you would have to be brain dead to not understand what that card is going to do to a game, and even if you don't get it, it will be abundantly clear once you play it. I don't think "X card has fair uses" is a legit argument when it also forms an infy combo with one other card and has a laundry list of tertiary cards it can ruin games with.

It's especially vexing when you look at the new philosophy document and go "wow, every stax card ever meets the bad card criteria, why are they still here?" Especially Winter Orb and Static Orb considering new urza takes them from miserable to completely degenerate one sided lockouts.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


Last edited by Gath Immortal on 2019-Jul-08 11:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 11:09 pm 
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The CAG made strong arguments that there were a lot of interesting Johnny applications, most of which fell within the boundaries of what we think is acceptable for Commander, and that the people who would choose to take advantage of the more worrying interactions were already doing worse things. That tipped the scales on a borderline card.


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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 11:12 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
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papa_funk wrote:
The CAG made strong arguments that there were a lot of interesting Johnny applications.


and yet no one has actually managed to give me one specific example that strikes me as novel or interesting, I would genuinely love for a more exhaustive explanation of what painter's servant is supposed to do as a positive good for the format to drown out what looks really bad about it.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: What has changed since Ugin was printed?
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-08 11:52 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Why are you even bringing up Iona? I’ve made it clear dozens of times that I fundamentally reject the notion that PS’s legality and Iona’s should have anything to do with each other. PS shouldn’t be banned because it has no reason to be, Iona didn’t necessarily need to be banned but I’m going to complain now that it is. Don’t saddle me with other people’s arguments.

Gath Immortal wrote:
8-and-a-half and oona are both wrist-slittingly miserable decks by themselves, I wouldn't say adding PS to them is a good thing, and teysa already had Darkest Hour so it doesn't really change much.
Everything you’ve said here is wrong. As someone who plays Tails and plays against Oona regularly, I can testify that both of them are only miserable when built to be. And you’re just factually wrong about Darkest Hour and its interaction with Teysa.

Quote:
I also completely disagree with the idea of "power creep exists, so unban things that don't fit the new power level"
That’s not my argument. Servant was explicitly banned for being an overpowered combo piece. The fact that it is no longer overpowered (or even all that powerful) is a pretty strong point against it remaining banned.

Quote:
The thing I don't understand though is why miserable cards only being played by miserable people is somehow a legit argument for ignoring any of the bad things PS does.
Because miserable people will try to make the game miserable no matter what cards are legal? You also missed the important point: most of the miserable things PS does are weak. Every combo with PS
Involves 2 cards that are dead by themselves. Why would you ever run Ps and Deathgrip when you can accomplish the same thing with DEN and Venser, two cards that are actually powerful? Why would you ever run Servantstone instead of the superior Voidhelm? To put it simply, running obnoxious combos with Servant is just plain stupid. Casual players won’t do it because it isn’t fun. Competitive players won’t do it because it doesn’t win.

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