Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Oct-15 8:04 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 2:16 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-08 5:49 pm
Age: Wyvern
Thanks for sharing guys and looking past my biasness in opinion and mostly conservative attitude toward a casual format,

I will say no, I've not played against Servastone in EDH because painter has always been banned as far as I can recall.

To address "why would you buy into..." I don't think anyone in my playgroup "buys into" anything outside of seeing that certain cards will work well in their certain builds for their favorite commanders.

Traditionally, I also cannot recall casual EDH being volatile or having surprise bans/unbans since I started playing, which was probably around Theros, but gained my trust finally around Shadows over Innistrad as a game that would be supported with my friends and could also be played casually at LGS outside of their paid tournaments with prize support.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 8:07 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So does that mean that the RC can't unban anything because it will immediately jump in price? Because how irresponsible would it be to unban Recurring Nightmare so we can play with it, only to find that this $20 card is now $100 dollars and we can't afford it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 9:48 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The EDH RC steward a game format, not a trade market. Their responsibility is to maintain format health, not to maintain the value of peoples' collections. The first influences the second but that influence doesn't create responsibility over the second.

Anyone buying, selling, and trading magic cards should be doing so with the awareness their legality might change during the next legality announcement. If they are not aware of this or assuming it will never happen, they are trading unwisely. If they expect to make no losses on their trades ever then they don't understand how investment works — you always risk losing capital.

People who bought Smuggler's Copter would've been disappointed seeing it banned from standard but it's how this stuff works. It doesn't mean the banning couldn't hpapen.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 9:56 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Nice Cards wrote:
Traditionally, I also cannot recall casual EDH being volatile or having surprise bans/unbans since I started playing, which was probably around Theros, but gained my trust finally around Shadows over Innistrad as a game that would be supported with my friends and could also be played casually at LGS outside of their paid tournaments with prize support.

EDH hasn't had anything resembling volatility in a long time, and these two bans were a long time coming. Iona was always a huge nightmare, and Paradox Engine was obviously problematic. These weren't a surprise to anyone and anyone saying they were "surprise bans" has hasn't been paying attention.

Cards being removed from the format happens. This shouldn't affect your trust in the format unless it happens regularly, which it clearly doesn't.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-09 10:14 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-08 5:49 pm
Age: Wyvern
My main point regarding the prices is changing bans in EDH clearly will affect the prices of cards. They have the power to do so, whether or not that is the intention, it is a demonstrated consequence.

With great power comes responsibility. My hope was that such impacts would at least be taken into account for future decisions to ban or unban cards. Hopefully and truly 100% necessary and demonstrated, not off-the-cuff announcements. You RC guys aren't Wizards for a good reason. I always felt EDH made my collection healthier, it did and does and cannot overlook the fact that without EDH, Wizards would not have been able to keep modern chaff viable over all these years. I hope to continue to feel that way about EDH.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 12:16 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Nice Cards wrote:
My main point regarding the prices is changing bans in EDH clearly will affect the prices of cards. They have the power to do so, whether or not that is the intention, it is a demonstrated consequence.

So what? Do you have proof that they are doing this to gain on changes in the market? Are they making these changes for personal gain? If not, then that's just how the market reacts to changes. Just the same as when WotC bans a card, or reprints a card, or creates a new format thus having new cards being the powerful cards in a different format. They print an uncommon as a common and suddenly Pauper can use it, so it spikes in price (this is more noticeable when printed as a common as part of a 'premium' set such as Modern Horizons or Modern Masters.)

Any time you spend money on a magic card, those are the risks you take. Commander is no different. Stop playing the victim and trying to blame others for your monetary loss (which is of no loss at all until you try to convert it to money. If you were just going to keep the card to play with while it was legal, then you're not out any money. You're actually up some amount once you sell it off, because you have some money that you otherwise wouldn't have had.)

Nice Cards wrote:
My hope was that such impacts would at least be taken into account for future decisions to ban or unban cards. Hopefully and truly 100% necessary and demonstrated, not off-the-cuff announcements.
This is stupid (no you, this idea.) Seriously. "Not [an] off-the-cuff announcement?" How else do you propose that they announce a card is banned? Tell us "Hey, we're considering banning card X?" a month before? In which case the market will just shift a month earlier as people assume it'll be banned in a month.


Nice Cards wrote:
You RC guys aren't Wizards for a good reason. I always felt EDH made my collection healthier, it did and does and cannot overlook the fact that without EDH, Wizards would not have been able to keep modern chaff viable over all these years. I hope to continue to feel that way about EDH.

So, you're wanting the format to support the value of your collection. That is not a consideration for bans in the format. You are being so short sighted here it's incredible. If they don't ban things when they should, then the format ends up going the way of being degenerate and falling apart -- thus removing value from many more cards in your collection. You should be glad that they are willing to prune out the ones that are causing issues so that the value of other cards in your collection maintain their value instead of ignoring what is good for the format and having a bunch of cards crash.

The goal of the RC is to guide the format so it is sustainable and enjoyable. That's how it got so popular in the first place, and pushed up the value of a bunch of these kinds of cards. Why should they alter that goal at all?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 12:40 am 

Joined: 2019-Jan-27 5:38 pm
Age: Wyvern
tbh at this point I don't think the RC even plays the game... This ban and the so dissapointing commander 2018 proves it to me...


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 12:45 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
WotC, not the RC, are responsible for designing commander product.

I’m happy for both bans, Iona is a fun suck and Paradox Engine is dumb. I’ll be happy to find a replacement for it in the one deck I had it in.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 1:08 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Carthain wrote:
If they don't ban things when they should, then the format ends up going the way of being degenerate and falling apart


we're already here, battlecruiser is dead and has been for awhile now according to people like the Command Zone. Everyone uses cheap instant win garbage like aetheflux reservoir, torment of hailfire, any of the billion 2 card or 1 card + general combos to win, lead-trading slugfests no longer happen because people explode into a cheap win by turn 5.

_________________
Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 2:50 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-09 4:45 am
Age: Wyvern
I don't believe that battle cruiser magic is dead. It is just buried behind in lower tier decks. When I first started playing commander we all had battle cruiser decks that got faster and faster until there was consistent early turn wins. It is just the way this game works. Even in modern and legacy the only creatures that are played are ones that are spells in addition to its types, and because of the philosophy that creatures should have higher cmc because they stick around longer it will always easier to play spell slinger combo decks. If people miss battlecruiser magic then make that known in your playgroup. After my personal playgroup got too fast we made a deal to build decks without instant win combos and a focus on combat damage and we all made the switch before we decided the faster decks were more fun. But the point is if you communicate with your playgroup you can have whatever experience you want. If you are having trouble at shops try to accurately find your decks power level on a 1-10 scale. And if you are not within a point of your opponents join a different pod. Or don't be upset if you get crushed. You were warned they would be better. And help communicate, if someone says they have a 7 but quickly tutor up a dramatic scepter combo and win, maybe let them know that is higher than a 7.

Overall neither cards needed to be banned, and many could come off the list and it should be up to us to find our fun than to pressure the RC and CAG to find it for us. Money-wise as an owner of the $40 paradox engine, if the losing $40 is crippling you then you need a less expensive hobby. I get why you would want the masterpiece and for those who own one, that really sucks and I hope you can play with it again soon.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 3:21 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tobeheard wrote:
After my personal playgroup got too fast we made a deal to build decks without instant win combos and a focus on combat damage and we all made the switch before we decided the faster decks were more fun. But the point is if you communicate with your playgroup you can have whatever experience you want.

This. And I believe this is what the RC wants for the format. As noted in the new philosophy document -- yes, you can 'break' the format, but that's not necessarily fun. Play the format in a way that is fun (for you & your playgroup.)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 4:37 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-May-11 11:02 am
Age: Drake
Baron Cappuccino wrote:
The only thing that’s even remotely unsettling about the announcement is the implied notion that the RC only just discovered that people don’t have to have nine mana to play Iona. It’s almost like the new CAG posted a Gatherer link to Reanimate in the private discussions and minds were blown. The cat was out of the bag— casuals were paying reduced costs for bombs. It was time to act. This implication is due to the statement that Iona’s cmc had been perceived to be enough till now.


It's a poorly written release. That's really the only problem I have with it too.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 7:49 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Nice Cards wrote:
With great power comes responsibility. My hope was that such impacts would at least be taken into account for future decisions to ban or unban cards. Hopefully and truly 100% necessary and demonstrated, not off-the-cuff announcements. You RC guys aren't Wizards for a good reason. I always felt EDH made my collection healthier, it did and does and cannot overlook the fact that without EDH, Wizards would not have been able to keep modern chaff viable over all these years. I hope to continue to feel that way about EDH.
It is certainly not 'off the cuff', the ban list change days are documented many months in advance. And people generally know what could be on the block if they are looking around social media.

Expand on "You RC guys aren't Wizards for a good reason". What is that reason, and why is it good?

Chiky wrote:
tbh at this point I don't think the RC even plays the game... This ban and the so dissapointing commander 2018 proves it to me...
Then you literally don't follow anything about Commander online. And Wizards does the products, not the RC.

Quote:
lead-trading slugfests no longer happen because people explode into a cheap win by turn 5.
And has been said for years, you need to find better people to play with. Those games exist, in spades.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Last edited by MRHblue on 2019-Jul-10 7:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 9:00 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-08 5:49 pm
Age: Wyvern
What I meant by them not being WotC, is they could be more vocal and communicate their intentions for change to us better. How long has PE been in commander? We could have at least had notifications they were planning on axing it from their official lists, give time for community discussion and input...something I would not expect Wizards to do.

Where do you guys get your information from? I don't consider myself some kind of expert, but I certainly consume a lot of commander content on YouTube, never once have I heard or seen anyone say "Paradox Engine is going to be banned in commander." I've also not seen Iona in play except by our Kaalia player.

I'm not actually advocating for a rule reversal, but better communication and consideration to all playgroups and types of players in the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Unban Iona, Reban Servent or Grindstone
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 9:36 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Nice Cards wrote:
What I meant by them not being WotC, is they could be more vocal and communicate their intentions for change to us better. How long has PE been in commander? We could have at least had notifications they were planning on axing it from their official lists, give time for community discussion and input...something I would not expect Wizards to do.
Thank you for clarifying, it seems you meant this as a compliment as opposed to what I first thought.

What do you think them telling us a month ago it was going to be banned would have changed?

Quote:
Where do you guys get your information from? I don't consider myself some kind of expert, but I certainly consume a lot of commander content on YouTube, never once have I heard or seen anyone say "Paradox Engine is going to be banned in commander." I've also not seen Iona in play except by our Kaalia player.
This site, a multitude of pod casts, and MTG Salvation are where I get my information. Of course no one said 'this will be banned' but TONS of people said 'this could get banned, and here is why'. But people have been saying that about a lot of cards, for a lot of years.So go, some stay. There is no perfect information.

Quote:
I'm not actually advocating for a rule reversal, but better communication and consideration to all playgroups and types of players in the future.
I think maybe thats a little on you. I understand you have not been in the format that long, but you found this page. So you know how to find content and digest it, past that it seems like you think the community should vote or something, and thats never going to happen.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: