Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Nov-16 9:50 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 12:58 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
tobeheard wrote:
AnIzzetBro, you seem to be very intent on Kaalia.

I think you need to re-read his post more carefully.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 2:28 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-09 4:45 am
Age: Wyvern
Sid you are right and I apologize for going off on Kaalia. To answer his actual questions. For question one that would require you the player to look for at a decision tree that comes with the game of magic. This game will always have a boogie man, not just Iona. You will not know when it comes out and you might have other more pressing issues on the board to fight. But that comes with the game and it is up to you. So in his example if you see something that will kill you in a few turns vs. a Kaalia that you are afraid might drop Iona right now, then decide which one is scarier, the known quantity or the unknown quantity. In the second question of thinking that because this game is social so people should not try to lock each other out is wanting to take away an entire playstyle that people enjoy in prison, and Iona has not nearly the impact on a game as an early winter orb, or contamination, or infernal darkness, or humility or etc. The contract comes in the group deciding it is ok to play that way and it is the person sitting down with that deck's responsibility to let people know they are playing a prison strategy. And although I wholly believe that Iona is an easier ban than paradox engine I still think that people should be allowed to play with it. Also it is ok to lose. And it is ok to lose to Iona at a random table of people and just not play with that person again. There is no shame if you are in a situation where you do not think that other players will help you out and you have no answers in your deck to a problem like that to wait until your turn and pick up your cards and start another game.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 4:17 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So 'play more answers'?

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-10 9:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
So 'play more answers'?

Yes. In fact, I think until your deck is nothing but the commander, lands, and answers this will be the rallying cry. Maybe you can add in a threat yourself if you feel like living on the edge, but it's best to play it safe, take that threat out, and put in more answers instead.

_________________
Useful threads: Colorless CI landsGraveyard HateRoR's Greatest Hits
My Decks: Zombiepocalypse (Thraximundar) ♦ Thrun stands alone (voltron) ♦ Ashling the Burninator ♦ Doran beatdown (treefolk/plant tribal) ♦ Mine! (UB theft/clone) ♦ Vampire Beatdown (Edgar Markov) ♦ BW Enchantments (Daxos the Returned)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 1:06 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-09 4:45 am
Age: Wyvern
I think overall players tend to not play enough answers but the answers they do play are haymakers which set them back. I think if you are running a ton of tutors or spell recursion you only need about 8 pieces of removal. Without tutors you should run about 13. Your deck should not be only answers, but it depends on the play style the number of answers you need is on a deck by deck basis. But overall I went from running ten board wipes to 2 board wipes and 5 pieces of single target removal and I feel happy with handling what comes at me. And I prefer the single target removal because instead of spending my entire turn playing a decree of pain I can use a tragic slip for 1 mana and continue what I was doing, or use a snuff out for free and just keep going with building my board state or trying to find my combo. And it is also ok to not have answers. As I said before it is fine for the game to end eventually.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 4:04 am 

Joined: 2019-May-15 8:39 am
Age: Wyvern
tobeheard wrote:
I think overall players tend to not play enough answers but the answers they do play are haymakers which set them back. I think if you are running a ton of tutors or spell recursion you only need about 8 pieces of removal. Without tutors you should run about 13. Your deck should not be only answers, but it depends on the play style the number of answers you need is on a deck by deck basis. But overall I went from running ten board wipes to 2 board wipes and 5 pieces of single target removal and I feel happy with handling what comes at me. And I prefer the single target removal because instead of spending my entire turn playing a decree of pain I can use a tragic slip for 1 mana and continue what I was doing, or use a snuff out for free and just keep going with building my board state or trying to find my combo. And it is also ok to not have answers. As I said before it is fine for the game to end eventually.


But we aren't talking about the game ending "eventually". We're talking about the game ending with one or more players not actually having gotten to play because a card sat on the board that says "You don't get to play Magic" which is highly antithetical to a format meant to be built on social interaction.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 5:34 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-09 4:45 am
Age: Wyvern
I think that there are phases in the game and so as I said you should have answers and interaction early in the game to keep you from being locked out of the game, and later in the game when your have lost your interaction and someone plays Iona on turn 6 or turn 7 if you don't have removal then the game has gone at a pace that you will only live for one or two more turns anyway. And if you really hate the Iona so much there is always the option to pick up and leave. And this is only rude to do if you have asked them before if they are playing cards like that and then when they do you leave. You signed up for the game just like they did. But if you are playing a slow deck and they drop a turn two Iona without previous discussion. Don't waste your time. Just go play another game. Go shop around and wait or grab some food. Do anything that isn't being mad at the game. Or politic for someone to help you out and get rid of it. Just remember to view this as a social game and even though Iona is scary, it is equally unfun to play against cards in your deck as well. I play mono black a lot and I had Iona played on my deck. I was mad for a moment. But in reality, I was going to torment to Hailfire for 20 the next turn, which is way more devastating. Just in general, if you are playing comparable decks then your threats should be just as scary but in different ways.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 6:05 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tobeheard wrote:
And if you really hate the Iona so much there is always the option to pick up and leave.

Suuure. So, they player should expect to have a nice game, get locked out and be unable to play and your suggestion is to just suck it up, you can always concede?

That's worse than "Run more answers."

The goal of the format is for everyone involved in the game to have fun. Now, as fun is subjective, you need to work with the other players to try and figure out how you all can have fun.

But how is "Now you don't get to play" fun?

tobeheard wrote:
Don't waste your time. Just go play another game.

Except that time is already wasted. Even two turns in can take a little bit of time. Plus there may have been opportunity to play in another group/pod but now that they're 2 turns in, it's awkward to insert yourself into the game...

These all sound like very selfish ideas for someone who just wants to play a card. What's wrong with you just not being able to play that card?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 6:32 am 

Joined: 2019-May-15 8:39 am
Age: Wyvern
tobeheard wrote:
I think that there are phases in the game and so as I said you should have answers and interaction early in the game to keep you from being locked out of the game, and later in the game when your have lost your interaction and someone plays Iona on turn 6 or turn 7 if you don't have removal then the game has gone at a pace that you will only live for one or two more turns anyway. And if you really hate the Iona so much there is always the option to pick up and leave. And this is only rude to do if you have asked them before if they are playing cards like that and then when they do you leave. You signed up for the game just like they did. But if you are playing a slow deck and they drop a turn two Iona without previous discussion. Don't waste your time. Just go play another game. Go shop around and wait or grab some food. Do anything that isn't being mad at the game. Or politic for someone to help you out and get rid of it. Just remember to view this as a social game and even though Iona is scary, it is equally unfun to play against cards in your deck as well. I play mono black a lot and I had Iona played on my deck. I was mad for a moment. But in reality, I was going to torment to Hailfire for 20 the next turn, which is way more devastating. Just in general, if you are playing comparable decks then your threats should be just as scary but in different ways.


So again, what is social or fun about preventing other people from participating in the game? And Torment is a *much* different beast. You have choices you can make with Torment. If it's big enough the game's probably over right then and there anyway so people can just choose to take the damage and shuffle up again (And yes, both I and other people have chosen to fight through a Torment before. It was still *far* less of a feel-bad play experience than dealing with Iona.)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 6:42 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
"Just go play another game" makes me think of the "strap on my job helmet" scene from Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

If I visit my FLGS that's minimum an hour out of my day just to visit its door and leave again to go home; it's longer to settle into a game. If I don't enjoy this game there is no other game just magically ready for me that I can drop into: the others have already started and it's going to be half an hour or an hour before they're ready for game two—our meta rarely has short games. It is 7pm at the earliest by this point, I will be tired from a long day at work, I could be at home, I came here to chill out and socialise playing some fun games, I did not come out here just to sit around for another hour and twiddle my thumbs.

I am very happy Iona is not something I need to worry about anymore.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 7:40 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-09 4:45 am
Age: Wyvern
I hear all of your concerns but Iona is something that could be avoided if you just talked before the game. I keep seeing people reply to my bit about just packing up and leaving and you are leaving out that I first said have a discussion before the game about what is to be expected. Then I said if you don't want to do that run ample removal to avoid getting locked out of the game. Then I said use politics to help get yourself unlocked out of the game. Then I said you are free to scoop it up. Use all of your other tools. And I personally have never played Iona but I carry the same theme of people should be allowed to play what you want to play. And Iona is not a crazy card decks are comparable which is what I said earlier. If you are playing any 7 or 8 deck then Iona should be fine for your format. And the point of Torment was to highlight that I couldn't be mad about getting hit with an Iona when I was planning on winning the game the next turn. Not that torment is equally as mean of a card. I'm sorry that there is so much hang up over Iona when truly I think Iona was only banned to keep it from being too powerful with Painter's Servant. I'm sorry that conceding is not an option for you and I understand the frustration. But I am only asking that you have the discussion with your playgroup before hand and none of the people responding have mentioned one time being willing to have that discussion. Just being mad that Iona was played. That is partially your own fault for A. not talking to the group about whether something like that would be played or B. not running the removal for it. I get that you seem to hate that answer but it is the only one that is true if you aren't willing to communicate with the playgroup beforehand. And before you say that you could ban it I would suggest the same thing for cards like Armageddon, winter orb, static orb, abusing strip mine, infernal darkness, contamination, teferi's puzzlebox/narset. It doesn't all belong to Iona, people are just going to be mad at other cards now that Iona is banned.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 8:23 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tobeheard wrote:
I hear all of your concerns but Iona is something that could be avoided if you just talked before the game.
So can every card ever printed. That does not make it a good reason not to ban something. Its akin to 'play more answers'.

Quote:
people are just going to be mad at other cards now that Iona is banned.
Yes, and they may also be correct. Some cards do crap no one should have to narrowly prepare for just to play the game.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 9:09 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-09 4:45 am
Age: Wyvern
You are being so narrow at this. What do you want me to say? Having a discussion with the people you sit down with is not an unreasonable request. If you have a list of twenty cards that you don't want to play against then develop your own ban list that people can play with because everyone should be able to play the way they want to without worrying about someone not thinking it is fun. "It isn't fun" is a bad answer to ban something. Nikya being a mirari's wake in the command zone isn't fun. Dramatic reversal and Isochron scepter isn't fun. Playing a creature deck against a deck full of board wipes isn't fun. There are hundreds of cards that aren't fun and if you don't have an answer to it you will lose. Why should we ban something because you can't be bothered to have ways to deal with it. When I first started I was told to have removal for any type of permanent or you will be strapped in the have a bad time. Even casual players like the Command Zone say to run 10 removal. Either have the discussion before the game or play removal if you don't feel like talking, just don't whine to have RC fix all your problems for you. If you hate Iona so bad then play Blue/Green/x deck and just win with flash hulk by turn 4 every game and you won't generally have to worry about cards like Iona.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 9:47 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tobeheard wrote:
I hear all of your concerns but Iona is something that could be avoided if you just talked before the game. I keep seeing people reply to my bit about just packing up and leaving and you are leaving out that I first said have a discussion before the game about what is to be expected. Then I said if you don't want to do that run ample removal to avoid getting locked out of the game. Then I said use politics to help get yourself unlocked out of the game. Then I said you are free to scoop it up. Use all of your other tools. And I personally have never played Iona but I carry the same theme of people should be allowed to play what you want to play. And Iona is not a crazy card decks are comparable which is what I said earlier. If you are playing any 7 or 8 deck then Iona should be fine for your format. And the point of Torment was to highlight that I couldn't be mad about getting hit with an Iona when I was planning on winning the game the next turn. Not that torment is equally as mean of a card. I'm sorry that there is so much hang up over Iona when truly I think Iona was only banned to keep it from being too powerful with Painter's Servant. I'm sorry that conceding is not an option for you and I understand the frustration. But I am only asking that you have the discussion with your playgroup before hand and none of the people responding have mentioned one time being willing to have that discussion. Just being mad that Iona was played. That is partially your own fault for A. not talking to the group about whether something like that would be played or B. not running the removal for it. I get that you seem to hate that answer but it is the only one that is true if you aren't willing to communicate with the playgroup beforehand. And before you say that you could ban it I would suggest the same thing for cards like Armageddon, winter orb, static orb, abusing strip mine, infernal darkness, contamination, teferi's puzzlebox/narset. It doesn't all belong to Iona, people are just going to be mad at other cards now that Iona is banned.

Ok, I hear you there -- I saw your post just saying "if you don't like Iona, leave the game" but did not recognise the context of that being a last resort after "talk before the game" and "also pack some sensible removal" among other stuff. Those are fine expectations. (Iona tends to mean you can't cast a lot of your removal spells anyway if you're affected by her but anyway having a decent amount of removal is good.)

I don't think those all fix things enough that I'm willing to say they all fix Iona to the point banning here isn't necessary—I thoroughly 100% welcome her ban and will be happy never to see her back—but those are reasonable requests to make regardless.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Ban List and Player Relations
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-11 12:11 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tobeheard wrote:
Why should we ban something because you can't be bothered to have ways to deal with it. When I first started I was told to have removal for any type of permanent or you will be strapped in the have a bad time.

This is such a terrible argument. You say "we" like you are part of some 'real EDH squad' that has no need for a ban list and I am some minority player who does not have answers. A ton of people don't think the card is good for the format. It literally stops people from casting spells. Its not just 'not fun' its refusing to allow the game to happen, often just for one player. Wipes et al hit everyone. Iona does not. Watch some interviews with the CAG, its generally a reviled card. Ask people if you can play it, if they all say yes - cool.

Quote:
If you hate Iona so bad then play Blue/Green/x deck and just win with flash hulk by turn 4 every game and you won't generally have to worry about cards like Iona.
I have no desire to play this way, and thats exactly the type of 'forced to play specific cards or strategies' the RC is talking about in the ban philosophy.

You are making the same argument over and over. Its been bad for a decade. People can't always answer Iona, because she STOPS YOU FROM CASTING SPELLS.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: