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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 4:26 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
NMS wrote:
Dee123 wrote:
... the most annoying card to me is cyclonic rift ... people play it as a panic button ... Those players need to learn how to use it productively. The time spent on the learning experience is just frustrating, and I am not sure it is even worth the effort. I think I am the only person in our group that will just not overload it to not waste time but try to get a good enough advantage.

Sometimes a defensive Rift is just the right (or only) play. It's such a powerful card because it's so flexible, not because it necessarily wins the game. If you just want to prevent blocking so you can swing for lethal or make it harder to interact so you can combo, there are cards that do those things for much less mana. It's not actually torture to spend a couple turns rebuilding your board state.


You are correct, but that take requires more nuance than a person playing a precon right out of the box will always have. That was what I was trying to ask. We know cards that people go out of their way to get that end up unfun usually know what they are doing. What do we do with cards that require a lot of knowledge to play that show up in a precon? If rift wasn't in that precon deck, it would not cause the issues it does for me.

Ultimately for me, I think it is best to work through it with those players where is causes an undesirable outcome. I ask how groups probably not on this board that don't understand the card might need help, and if that point is discussed.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 8:50 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
NMS wrote:
Dee123 wrote:
... the most annoying card to me is cyclonic rift ... people play it as a panic button ... Those players need to learn how to use it productively. The time spent on the learning experience is just frustrating, and I am not sure it is even worth the effort. I think I am the only person in our group that will just not overload it to not waste time but try to get a good enough advantage.

Sometimes a defensive Rift is just the right (or only) play. It's such a powerful card because it's so flexible, not because it necessarily wins the game. If you just want to prevent blocking so you can swing for lethal or make it harder to interact so you can combo, there are cards that do those things for much less mana. It's not actually torture to spend a couple turns rebuilding your board state.


I would actually argue that it's that flexibility that makes cyclonic rift a banning candidate. It's simply too good at what it does. It's unrestrictive colored mana cost to overload, instant speed nature makes it a card that wins games more often than not. Clogged boardstate and you can't get into the red zone? Just overload rift. Someone trying to kick your teeth in with their board of creatures? Just overload rift. Have more permanents on board that you can't/don't want to deal with? Just overload rift. Want to limit interaction for your combo? Just overload rift... all at instant speed, often at the end of the turn of the person right before you get a turn completely unhindered by roadblocks.

If it were sorcery speed, symmetrical, and/or was a significantly harder thing to cast (colored mana-wise), it would be a different story. It's nature as an enabler to do everything I mentioned, while also serving as a single card "invalidate all the effort the other players put in this game when this resolves", makes it awful to play against, regardless of the skill or tenure of the person playing it.

That it's currently sitting at (on EDHrec):
"In 59673 decks
48% of 124360 decks"

You and I know full well that it's because it's so damn easy to slot into ANY deck that runs blue... It wouldn't be nearly as prevalent if it's overload cost had 3-4 hard pips of blue needed to cast it. 5 color decks? no problem, you just need a single blue...

The 2 more popular cards on the site over the past 2 years?? Sol ring... and swords to plowshares... one is a mana rock everyone can use. And the other is a single target spot removal card for a creature... one of 5 major permanent types.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 9:40 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
While I agree with almost everything you wrote up there, this bit
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
makes it a card that wins games more often than not.

isn't a criteria for banning - you can't ban everything that wins a game.

As I said though, the rest of what you said is accurate, and although I'm not 100% on the pitchfork and burning torch bandwagon, I wouldn't be sad to see it go.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-25 11:23 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
isn't a criteria for banning - you can't ban everything that wins a game.
As I said though, the rest of what you said is accurate, and although I'm not 100% on the pitchfork and burning torch bandwagon, I wouldn't be sad to see it go.


Of course not, we don't want a massive banned list to further complicate the format and increase the barrier for new players to enter.

When C.Rift is as versatile as it is, it's surprising that it's not banned along side P.Engine. You could argue that you need plenty of other things like creatures on board, enough mana/mana rocks and cards in hand to do more things etc. to fully take advantage of a "well timed" C.Rift... sure. You also need all of those things to fully take advantage of P.Engine.

Whether the game is 5 turns or 15 turns, if the caster doesn't win soon after resolving C.Rift, it's no less groan inducing than a P.Engine turn or two that doesn't also win quickly. Similar masturbatory potential of "I'm going to do what I want and try to combo off" on the turn you get free and clear after C.Rift, only the boardstate isn't necessarily left in ruins after P.Engine fails to fire off.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 11:59 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Regardless of whether you think Rift or Engine deserves to be banned, they are not comparable. One is a removal spell that occasionally turns into a win condition, while the other is a value engine that occasionally turns into a win condition. If you want to compare them to currently banned cards, Engine is like Prophet of Kruphix or Fastbond, while Rift is closer to Karakas or Upheaval.

I’m personally ambivalent about Rift getting banned or not, but comparing it to Paradox Engine will get you nowhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-28 1:44 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Regardless of whether you think Rift or Engine deserves to be banned, they are not comparable. One is a removal spell that occasionally turns into a win condition, while the other is a value engine that occasionally turns into a win condition. If you want to compare them to currently banned cards, Engine is like Prophet of Kruphix or Fastbond, while Rift is closer to Karakas or Upheaval.

I’m personally ambivalent about Rift getting banned or not, but comparing it to Paradox Engine will get you nowhere.


You are absolutely right. My intention wasn't so much to make the direct comparison of Paradox Engine and Cyclonic Rift, but instead to suggest that they have a similar nature of "Put it in a deck and it's going to run better."

Cyclonic Rift is more akin to Upheaval & Paradox Engine is more akin to Prophet of Kruphix. 100%.
They are so much like banned cards in their versatility and impact to the board, that I'm surprised C. Rift isn't among them.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-29 2:38 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-29 2:27 am
Age: Hatchling
PE does almost nothing if you haven't build a deck with a lot of dorks/rocks and a consistent draw engine. Without the engine you can empty your hand, maybe, but you can't do more than this.

I really think they give a ton of fake reasons because they can't say "we don't want to wait 15 minutes while another player is comboing". Combo is ok? Yes, but only if you win in a fast way. Waiting for a combo to go off is contrary to the concept of entertainment this guys have.

And, of course, they absolutely don't consider what others consider fun. I don't see why I have to wait half an hour to see the end of a Gitrog combo (ban Gitrog, PORCO DIO!) or I have to wait 10 turns with a Statis/Orb on the table but I can't close a game with a 10 minutes Jhoira/Urza PE combo.

They talked about transparency. I would like the names of those who voted for the PE ban and those who voted against it.

BTW. I was only playing PE in my Ezuri deck and almost nothing changes to the deck, but I've got a playset of PE which has completely lost its value because of these incompetents.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-29 3:43 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Tenebroleso wrote:
They talked about transparency. I would like the names of those who voted for the PE ban and those who voted against it.

Out of curiosity -- what would that accomplish? It's not like they can be voted out.

Tenebroleso wrote:
BTW. I was only playing PE in my Ezuri deck and almost nothing changes to the deck, but I've got a playset of PE which has completely lost its value because of these incompetents.

By the way -- welcome to the forums. Referring to those who curate the format, and have guided it to the popularity that it currently has, as "incompetents" isn't a particularly good first foot forward. Just... you know, seems like what should be common courtesy.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-30 7:05 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Tenebroleso wrote:
And, of course, they absolutely don't consider what others consider fun. I don't see why I have to wait half an hour to see the end of a Gitrog combo (ban Gitrog, PORCO DIO!) or I have to wait 10 turns with a Statis/Orb on the table but I can't close a game with a 10 minutes Jhoira/Urza PE combo.
This is the part a lot of the new folks to this forum get wrong, because they heard is somewhere else and didn't bother to fact check it.

Rule 0 absolutely says 'We get this isnt perfect for everyone, if you think something else will be more fun , do it !'

Most people care about all 3 things you listed, they want to play Magic. PE wasn't banned for taking 10 minute turns. You don't have to wait out Gitrog, concede the combo. PE may actually do jack squat after 10 minutes.

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-01 6:39 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
November wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Look, there's nothing wrong with the 75% on up to 100% tier of Commander, but that isn't representative of the whole format nor the reason people play. So when the ban list is approached, it should be at that 50% level, not the 100% level.

The banned list would look a lot different as of right now if it was actually balanced to create the most positive play experience for those in casual-to-moderate power levels of Commander play. Instead, I believe the RC has balanced it to eliminate the "worst of the worst", cards that are too far out of line to be a positive experience ever - across the complete power level spectrum.

It is possible that Paradox Engine could cause a bad experience in some metas if it's just plopped on the table and used to take a long, durdly turn. If people use it properly, it wins the game. I just don't think the RC should be banning a fun and very "battlecruiser" artifact powerhouse because it is occasionally used in such a way that generates a negative game state.

There are so many legal cards that generate far more misery, far less interesting game states, and far worse outcomes when used improperly in casual games than Paradox Engine. This includes using them when someone is behind, just to stall, or to slow down the game without a win condition available.

I'll start with this list for example:

    Winter Orb
    Static Orb
    Armageddon / Ravages of War / all other mass land destruction cards
    Cyclonic Rift
    Sunder
    Mindslicer
    Chains of Mephistopheles
    Nether Void
    Sire of Insanity
    Storage Matrix
    Fatespinner
    Vorinclex & Jin-Gitaxias
    Mass chaos cards (Scrambleverse/Thieves Auction/etc)

The major differentiation here, and why I believe Paradox Engine should remain legal is that it is in the class of the above cards, which are all legal. All of these cards have the ability to create negative experiences for players, but only if a player uses it in a sub-optimal way, such as without an available win condition, against decks that obviously are not prepared to deal with it, or are greatly below their power level.


So I don’t see how many of these cards even compare to cards that are banned and unbanned in the last ten years. Something should at least reach a point of contention and conversation to have it be banned. Jin-Gitaxias is a feel bad and prob the only card on this list that’s actually been considered.

All these other cards seem like few bads for playing a slower deck without low cost removal of General permanents mostly stacks effects which are often artifacts and enchantments.

Basically you only outlined things that slow the game down because they discard your hand, change targets or control, or keep you from untapping/having lands in play.

All of which are more answerable then paradox engine. People seem to forget that it’s a cast trigger and short of a hard lock on board you can’t stop it.

If you think stacks is bad you should look up rule of law and possibility storm. Now that’s feels bad festia of choas and hard lock.

As for the OP:
Sure this one casual list is put out to pasture for the crimes of the many and I’d even wager you could build around it with time, but you’ve gotten use to the card and hate the idea of changing your list.

Sounds like you were relying on it too much to begin with. If they ban pourphrous tomorrow I wouldn’t take my Jund deck apart because I have other lesser wincons that still work. It would seem like your should try to do the same for your list in the future to prevent feeling targeted by the RC.

I can’t say with certainty what your meta is but it sounds like you have a meta with decent folks who just want to jam cards. Which is what we all want to do.

Personally I’ve seen this ban coming for 7 months and waited for one card to be printed to push for the ban. Urza was that card and I told everyone to get rid of that card or lose value. My personal experience is that the card turns fair games into infinite mana shenanigans vary quickly and a deck that was fine and balanced will become broken fairly easily by adding the card.

Doesn’t matter if it’s a mono black chainer list or a blue, green, white dervi list it always ends up turning into winning the game on infinite mana and it’s nearly impossible to answer as soon as it touches the board.

So sorry for your lost rip paradox engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-04 12:03 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Tenebroleso wrote:
PE does almost nothing if you haven't build a deck with a lot of dorks/rocks and a consistent draw engine. Without the engine you can empty your hand, maybe, but you can't do more than this.

I really think they give a ton of fake reasons because they can't say "we don't want to wait 15 minutes while another player is comboing". Combo is ok? Yes, but only if you win in a fast way. Waiting for a combo to go off is contrary to the concept of entertainment this guys have.

And, of course, they absolutely don't consider what others consider fun. I don't see why I have to wait half an hour to see the end of a Gitrog combo (ban Gitrog, PORCO DIO!) or I have to wait 10 turns with a Statis/Orb on the table but I can't close a game with a 10 minutes Jhoira/Urza PE combo.

They talked about transparency. I would like the names of those who voted for the PE ban and those who voted against it.

BTW. I was only playing PE in my Ezuri deck and almost nothing changes to the deck, but I've got a playset of PE which has completely lost its value because of these incompetents.

Did you read the ban announcement? No? have a quick look at this:
Quote:
Paradox Engine is a card that has proven to be intensely problematic. Not only does it provide easy wins seemingly out of nowhere, it has demonstrated the potential to unintentionally wreck games. Easily inserted into any deck, it combines with cards which players already have heavy incentives to play, generating a great deal of mana with virtually no deck building cost. While we don’t ban cards which are only problematic if you build around them, Paradox Engine has clearly demonstrated that it doesn’t need to be built around to be broken.

It wasn't banned because it takes a long time to win, it's banned because it is too easy to abuse without trying. Your last sentence explains exactly why is it banned, you made no changes to your deck, slotted in PE and it makes the deck significantly better.

Many decks are similar, as you point out all you need is some mana rocks and some card draw, which everyone is playing because of course you are. So most decks are going to be able to benefit.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-04 3:16 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
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I'm still at a loss as to why anyone thinks that the monetary value of Paradox Engine before/after the ban is or should be a relevant point. The only relevant point should be "is the existence of this card in the format harmful enough that banning it would significantly improve the format?" If the answer is yes, then the banning is justified regardless of any monetary issues. If the answer is no, then the banning is unjustified regardless of any monetary issues.

The only exception to the above statement is when the card's monetary value and impact on the health of the format are directly tied together. And any card that fits said exception would need to have a triple digit price tag before even remotely qualifying, a condition that did not and probably never would have applied to Paradox Engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-10 2:41 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I'm still at a loss as to why anyone thinks that the monetary value of Paradox Engine before/after the ban is or should be a relevant point.

Amen to that. It's not a factor in any other format's bannings, why should it be here? When Smuggler's Copter was axed from standard not long ago, I'm sure WotC did not worry for a second that people's collection value would take a hit. It needed to go, and so it went. Does it suck for people who invested in a card only to have it banned? Absolutely. But that is acceptable collateral damage, to be brutally honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Arguments against the banning of Paradox Engine
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-10 2:59 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I'm still at a loss as to why anyone thinks that the monetary value of Paradox Engine before/after the ban is or should be a relevant point.

Amen to that. It's not a factor in any other format's bannings, why should it be here? When Smuggler's Copter was axed from standard not long ago, I'm sure WotC did not worry for a second that people's collection value would take a hit. It needed to go, and so it went. Does it suck for people who invested in a card only to have it banned? Absolutely. But that is acceptable collateral damage, to be brutally honest.


Image

People who engage in speculative investment—which is any one of us particularly caring about the monetary value of their cards for trading and selling purposes—has to accept there's a risk of losing money. The risk of losing money and the amount we stand to lose is, as a general rule, always proportionate to the gain we stand to make.

Some people don't want to accept they might lose money and it's just their own problem and want to find someone else to blame.

But the EDH RC never made a deal with them to take care of their investments for them, so that's just tough luck.

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