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 Post subject: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 1:37 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-24 1:00 am
Age: Wyvern
To the Rules committee:
I have been playing EDH since the inception and am an avid player. Sincerely thank you for giving me such an amazing format! I wouldnt be playing magic at all if not for EDH. I have never posted here but i wanted to share some thoughts.

I understand the complexity of building a ban list. There are thousands of things to consider with very little data plots to determine what moves to make. All the committee is fed is 100% anecdotal evidence, which is unfortunate.

That said it is my opinion that Iona's ban was over reach. At 9 CMC, to me, she is not half as oppressive as most stacks/other "unfun" cards out there.

Here is my anecdotal data to prove it :lol: :lol: :lol: ! I have around 100 commander decks assembled and Iona's are represented in 2, so roughly 2%. Mostly because she isn't that good in commander. A 9 CMC card can often be just a dead draw. There are simply better card for locking people out (an in my opinion far less fun).

Now I, as an EDH player, make a conscious effort to consider my opponents enjoyment. I personally dont play the blood moon's or other cards players would consider "toxic" cards. I want everyone to sit down laugh and have a great time. Also from my experience I find those who play "toxic" cards usually become the Archenemy very quickly! The game has a great way to "balance" itself.

Looking at other cards with the same CMC and power level, Iona is worse (arguing stops less spells from being cast) than Void Winnower who can slot any deck at the same CMC.

I guess the problem I have is, I find sitting across from a winter orb much less "fun" than me playing a mono deck vs Iona.

Let me explain, to me, Iona exemplifies the heart of what started EDH...massive unplayable bad A creatures! She even is 7/7 Just like the elder dragons how awesome is that :shock: :shock: :shock: ! I just laugh when i see her dropped because it IS so iconically EDH, usually followed by an crappy Muldoon impersonation of "Cleaver Girl..."

What just happened here is people who invested into a really non playable in all formats "fun" card (even EDH cause you wont see her in a single cEDH deck)just to see her arbitrarily banned... which is no fun.

Thanks for Reading
Fury


Last edited by AoOFury on 2019-Jul-24 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 4:38 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Three issues with your argument:

First, the 9 CMC isn't relevant for the discussion because there are so many ways to put creatures into play without ever casting them. It does somewhat limit them, but between the ever-increasing amounts of ramp and trick-into-play effects the CMC becomes less relevant all the time.

Second, unlike other stax effects, it typically completely negates decks without letting them have any chance of getting out of it. Most other effects, like Void Winnower or Winter Orb don't cause a full lockdown since most decks will still be able to cast some sort of removal.

Third, unlike most stax effects, Iona is not symmetrical. It will completely stop some players from playing their decks, while the rest of the game goes on at a normal pace. Unless the Iona gets removed in the next turn or two, this causes a situation where one or more players sit for a good chunk of the game without being allowed to play - or even the chance to play - while the rest of the game goes on normally for other players.

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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 4:47 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
EDIT: Willbender ninja'd me and said a lot of what I wanted to say in a more concise manner.

Hello and welcome to the forums!

There's a lot to unpack about why Iona, was banned, but the most relevant reason seems to be encapsulated by the combination of these two statements:
Quote:
Now i make a conscious effort to consider my opponents enjoyment. I personally don't play the blood moons or other "toxic" cards because i want everyone to sit down laugh and have a great time.

thats what EDH is...massive bad A creatures

To put it simply, the RC rarely if ever bans cards like Winter Orb for the exact reason you described: people who want to sit down and have a good time don't play it or cards like it*.

The type of card that does often get the banhammer is a card that looks fun on paper, but in practice isn't. To a lot of people, that is the exact description of Iona. A big shiny mythic angel that has a Winter Orb-like effect stapled on it. People who do care about their opponents' enjoyment run Iona because they don't see her as such a bad effect, even though she is.

Quote:
Looking at other cards with the same CMC and power level, Iona is worse (arguing stops less spells from being cast) than Void Winnower who can slot any deck at the same CMC.

For starters, even if I were to agree with this 100%, the conclusion would be that Void Winnower or whatever should also be banned, not that Iona shouldn't be.

Ignoring all that however, Iona is still pretty unique even within the category of "big creatures with an effect that makes the game less fun". Cards like Void Winnower or the Praetors employ a soft lock on the whole table. This then incentivizes everybody to get rid of it or lose, and still leaves plenty of options for the affected players to do so. Everybody still gets to play the game, just in a lessened state.

Iona on the other hand often creates a hard lock for one player and a soft lock for one other. This cuts out the incentive for several people to spend resources to get rid of a card that doesn't affect them, all while the main recipient of Iona just has to sit and watch. Worse yet, often it will be the strategically optimal play to allow an Iona to stay in play even if it affects you because the main target player is in the lead.

There's also other factors that make Iona an unpleasant card to the format. One big one is that it tends to punish newer players and less $$ expensive decks harsher, as they are more likely to be running 1-2 colors. And on a related note, Iona is the prime example of why color hate tends to be despised. Her ability's power has nothing to do with the actual boardstate or any strategy of the opponents' decks, but what mana symbols are in the upper corner of them. You name red because you want to punish player A's Krenko, Mob Boss list and hit player B's Lord Windgrace as collateral damage. Yet if player B built a nearly identical list with Gitrog Monster instead he wouldn't have been affected, and if the Krenko deck was instead Rhys, the Redeemed or some other deck with virtually the same strategy you would have named a different color and hurt different people. Who Iona hurts and how badly is largely arbitrary, which makes it feel even scummier when you're one of the targets.
[spoiler="*"]Excepting cEDH, which is not relevant to this discussion[/spoiler]


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 5:12 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-24 1:00 am
Age: Wyvern
Quote:
For starters, even if I were to agree with this 100%, the conclusion would be that Void Winnower or whatever should also be banned, not that Iona shouldn't be.


First thank you got the welcome!

The RC does a great job, I just felt like this was out of left field and wanted to say something about it. Not saying you guys are wrong or there isnt good logic. Its obvious my opinions is neither of these cards should be banned. I'm really against banning most cards and expanding the list. I feel Iona is a red haring here thus joining and saying something.

I just ask we look and ask ourselves how many games are really busted before ever adding to the ban list. Its really easy to see someone flash out a hulk turn 2 to "Win" (and no I dont think combos like this should be banned either). But for me I simply look the other other 2 players and ask if they want to get a new 4th for game 2. The social aspect of it really rights the ship more often than not.

My ideal solution would be writing up some guidelines so playgroups can discuss what they want out of the format vs heavy handed banning. Not sure how to deploy that, perhaps other have an opinion on this?

Fury


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 5:20 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-24 1:00 am
Age: Wyvern
Quote:
There's also other factors that make Iona an unpleasant card to the format. One big one is that it tends to punish newer players and less $$ expensive decks harsher, as they are more likely to be running 1-2 colors.



Now this is interesting and a separate issue. I will agree commander has gotten out of hand on the finance side. I with WOTC printer more commander decks in larger runs to help new players. I have often toyed with the Idea of a point league for commander where a card is rated from 1-100 points based on power and setting limits to the amount of points allocated. (Think warhammer) The challenge is assigning a point value.

Fury


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 5:29 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
AoOFury wrote:
My ideal solution would be writing up some guidelines so playgroups can discuss what they want out of the format vs heavy handed banning. Not sure how to deploy that, perhaps other have an opinion on this?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19104

I would start there and focus on Rule 0.

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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 6:02 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-24 1:00 am
Age: Wyvern
Quote:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19104

I would start there and focus on Rule 0.


:lol: :lol: Great point. Rule numero uno! There are no rules!


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 6:14 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
AoOFury wrote:
:lol: :lol: Great point. Rule numero uno! There are no rules!

I can't tell if you are being serious. If so, thats not the point. If people want to play with Iona, or any other card on the list, a simple discussion is encouraged to remedy that.

The rest of the ruless : http://mtgcommander.net/rules.php?PRINT=1

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 7:00 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-24 1:00 am
Age: Wyvern
No no RHblue was being serious. No sarcasm here (really wouldn't advance my point that nearly a thousand cards could meet a banable criteria such as Iona.)

Food for thought, both methods work. My Personal preference is to have a sidebar conversation after a game with the player of a problematic card ie. "Hey Uktabi_Kong...you know MRHblue really felt left out and frustrated when you played Iona locking him out of playing his mono deck, do you mind replacing that card moving forward?" vs "that cards banned, cant play it Uktabi_Kong".

Rule 0 by its nature fixes problematic cards also.


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 7:53 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
AoOFury wrote:
No no RHblue was being serious. No sarcasm here (really wouldn't advance my point that nearly a thousand cards could meet a banable criteria such as Iona.)

Food for thought, both methods work. My Personal preference is to have a sidebar conversation after a game with the player of a problematic card ie. "Hey Uktabi_Kong...you know MRHblue really felt left out and frustrated when you played Iona locking him out of playing his mono deck, do you mind replacing that card moving forward?" vs "that cards banned, cant play it Uktabi_Kong".

Rule 0 by its nature fixes problematic cards also.

Rule 0 is the default method, and when it fails that's when the banlist comes into play. Cards get banned after sidebar conversations don't work, or when they have to keep happening across playgroups with the same card.

Whenever those conversations happen with Iona, the response from her player tends to be something along the lines of "Yeah, next time I won't pick the monocolor deck's color" or some other excuse that implies that the problem wasn't really Iona but (insert literally anything else here). Heck, I've even had conversations on this board suggesting that all monocolored decks should just run cards like Duplicant, Brittle Effigy, and Oblivion Stone to deal with her.

It's not anywhere near comparable in terms of degree, but the overall cadence of discussions about Iona bring back flashbacks of discussions regarding Primeval Titan. And that was a time where the entire format was in denial about the effect the card had on the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 8:06 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-24 1:00 am
Age: Wyvern
Quote:
It's not anywhere near comparable in terms of degree, but the overall cadence of discussions about Iona bring back flashbacks of discussions regarding Primeval Titan. And that was a time where the entire format was in denial about the effect the card had on the game.


Wait Primeval Titan is BANNED?! All it does is give you a few lands, whats the harm in that?? :wink: :wink: :wink:

Fury


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-24 8:21 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-24 1:00 am
Age: Wyvern
I play commander in a very mature group (well i assume mature :lol: :lol: , 30-50 year olds) so the sidebars almost always work and thats probably my disconnect.

In all seriousness to recap:

Julius Caesar had a slave named Auriga whos only job was to whisper "Memento Mori" (You are only a man). The RC deserves feedback from its players, they cant get better without it. I understand why Iona was banned, just remember when it comes to "fun" mileage may vary. Today's Iona is tomorrows Expropriate. I stand by my statement that in this instance a 9 CMC (cheat-able or not) is supposed to be a bomb, I feel was unjustly chopped. Im sure others feel the same way, please take that into consideration when it comes to the next ban update. Let us all remember not to get caught up in our hubris.

Fury

Edit:
AoOFury wrote:
Let us all remember not to get caught up in our hubris.

Said that way because perhaps I could be way off basis as none on this thread has come out and said "That card is harmless i agree with the new guy!" 8) (it would be cool if you did though) 8)

Interesting Data - Iona was in n 4348 decks 4% of 110336 decks (a higher % than i would have thought)


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-27 12:14 pm 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
Nobody is going to convince me that Iona is worse than a lot of the other expensive cards (and even some cheap ones) that are still legal to play, but I don't think that there's much of a chance to change many people's minds on the subject. The recent ban list updates are some of the only ones that I disagree with to date.


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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-27 3:50 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Whenever those conversations happen with Iona, the response from her player tends to be something along the lines of "Yeah, next time I won't pick the monocolor deck's color" or some other excuse that implies that the problem wasn't really Iona but (insert literally anything else here). Heck, I've even had conversations on this board suggesting that all monocolored decks should just run cards like Duplicant, Brittle Effigy, and Oblivion Stone to deal with her.


Thanks for reminding me to re-evalute Duplicant in my mono-green Selvala deck!

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 Post subject: Re: Iona - a peasants thoughts
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-28 5:31 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Panphage wrote:
Nobody is going to convince me that Iona is worse than a lot of the other expensive cards (and even some cheap ones) that are still legal to play, but I don't think that there's much of a chance to change many people's minds on the subject. The recent ban list updates are some of the only ones that I disagree with to date.
Should that be the threshold for Iona?

What about 'games are going to get better because its gone'?

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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