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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-25 6:39 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Maluko wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
Cards getting bounced already has a built-in mitigation: you can cast it again. Cards that go to the graveyard are usually gone forever unless you're building a deck that interacts with that zone and would spend the resources to get those cards back. (Granted part of the power of mass bounce is you'll often wind up with a couple too many cards in your hand afterwards.)

I wouldn't personally count Squee as "can't be exiled", but he turns removal into a sort of bounce. There's still no "can't be exiled" effect like there is indestructible.

Note there also isn't an anti-tuck "can't get put into a library from the battlefield" effect.

This is ultimately all true, you can cast all your stuff again… which can take you about 1-3 turns depending on your previous board state. If your opponent already had a developed board, that is a huge tempo loss for you and the other players, and gives your opponent a tremendous advantage. For just seven mana.

"Well, Plague Wind can also do that" you will probably say next. Except it can't: it only affects creatures, costs two mana more, and, very importantly, it's not an instant. This is where I'm trying to get at.

For what it's worth I'm not actually trying to debate on Cyclonic Rift, I was just miffed to see the comment about bounce mitigation.

I can take or leave cyclonic rift being in the format. I'd like to see it replaced by a different blue sweeper that's maybe 75% as powerful, ideally.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 12:42 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Shoe wrote:
also, what does a sac outlet do against exile sweepers that it cant do against rift?

What Sid said, although also a relevant point: name me an asymmetrical exile sweeper that hits all non-land permanents.

And while you're at it, name me a sac outlet that does the same. There's Bolas' Citadel, Claws of Gix, flashing in God-Eternal Bontu... maybe Eternal Tribute or Barrin, and then the quality starts to fall off fast.


maybe there isnt an exile sweeper that reads that way precisely but Urza's Ruinous Blast and Soulscour in the right deck totally do that.

sac outlets for most or all types: you were pretty thourough on this one but you missed greater gargadon

either way, the sac outlet for rift doesnt have to even be a total one because if you have more than 7 in hand, you will be discarding anyway. a sweeper spell SHOULD get to kill some stuff.

im not saying rift is bad, its very strong and suspiciously ubiquitous, but it doesnt prevent anyone from playing, it leaves lands, which is a pretty big deal in this case. its why, imho, its still unbanned but upheval is not.

cyclonic rift isnt a card where, if you play it, you are surprised about the effect it has on the game. its super good, but unless you have a more competative meta, its not gonna be recurred and if you do have that meta, it is well within what you are ok with.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 2:07 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Wyvern
These threads that are about banning older cards without new cards making for a new problem are all pretty much the same.

The ban post basically boils down to "This card makes me not want to play this format anymore."
The response is basically "Get better" or "You only remember the bad games."

The issue, to me, is more about card availability either making things worse or allowing them to go away. Prophet of Kruphix might not have become the problem it was without the duel deck. Cyclonic rift is in one precon. I am not sure if that is enough, but it was enough to get wheel and deal or whatever it was in an early precon booted.

This is where the issue of whether people know what they are doing or not breaks down. Do people that have rift because it was in their precon really know what they are doing with it? Would they have acquired it had it not been in the deck? And what percentage of game wreckers are those players vs the ones who did go out of their way to get free wins? Those are hard questions to answer with limited data.

The issue is actually similar to bannings in standard, but they have the better data. When people decide they'd rather do something other than play standard on Friday nights, WOTC tends to act. If people would rather do something else than play Commander with cyclonic rift because the card just isn't naturally going away, it might be time for the RC to act.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 7:18 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
I can't remember a single game made better by Rift. If it was a sorcery, I'd have less of an issue, or if it's overload cost involved a lot more blue mana. But as it stands, its everywhere, it's easy to cast, and causes problems every time its overload cost is paid. The format is better without it, and there are plenty of other blue mass bounce spells waiting in the wings that aren't nearly as miserable to play against.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 7:32 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
Age: Wyvern
Maluko wrote:
Cause severe resource imbalances: YES.

No. It doesn't bounce lands, which are your main resource. If it bounces some artifact ramp (or mana dorks), that's the trade-off for getting to ramp with artifacts (or creatures).
Quote:
Allow players to win out of nowhere: YES.

No. The blue player still has to have a board state, or still has to have some way of winning. And if they play this and then attack everyone for the win, then they've ended the game quickly, and you can shuffle up for a new game. Compare this to Coalition Victory, where you can just play this and win on the spot, out of nowhere, even when all you have is 8 lands, your commander, and 1 life.
Quote:
Cause other players to feel they must play certain cards, even though they are also problematic: YES. Although side note: I don't think "spell creatures" are problematic for the format. It's only when a deck starts getting packed with them that inevitably the deck's strategy will lead towards abusing and recurring such creatures, which inevitably leads to repetitive gameplay patterns.

I'm not sure what problematic cards you think this forces you to play when your opponent plays Cyclonic Rift in their decks. Examples?
Quote:
Are very difficult for other players to interact with, especially if doing so requires dedicated, narrow responses when deck-building: YES.

Counterspell and Duress (and their ilk) are hardly "dedicated, narrow responses". They have all sorts of uses beyond just Cyclonic Rift. Same with mass blink effects like Teferi's Protection or Eerie Interlude.
Quote:
Lead to repetitive game play: YES.

This sounds more like an issue with a specific playgroup. I play Rift in a lot of my decks, and sure it's good when I draw it, but my deck isn't built around getting Rift out and winning with it. Might be time to have a chat with the people you play with and ask them to not build their decks specifically to get it every game.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 8:09 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Marit Lage wrote:
I can't remember a single game made better by Rift.

I've seen it used in ways that I'd say are at least neutral - for example, I watched a mono-green player develop an incredibly over-the-top boardstate in a single turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Vorinclex, Patron of the Orochi, etc, powering out a ton of stuff, including Akroma's Memorial, Vigor and Grothama. This took a while - I don't remember all the cards involved, but there was a lot of tapping mana, drawing cards, playing more stuff, dig dig dig dig dig... at any rate, he then tried to kill the table by attacking with everything and having everything fight Grothama, but not die because Vigor, to have a gigantic board of doom. And then the rift happened. And then the green player ragequit because he apparently didn't see this coming (I'm not sure why), and the rest of the table played for another half-hour or so before someone finally won. Whether this qualifies as "improving the game" is of course open to interpretation, but I think it did.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 8:21 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
I can't remember a single game made better by Rift.

I've seen it used in ways that I'd say are at least neutral - for example, I watched a mono-green player develop an incredibly over-the-top boardstate in a single turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Vorinclex, Patron of the Orochi, etc, powering out a ton of stuff, including Akroma's Memorial, Vigor and Grothama. This took a while - I don't remember all the cards involved, but there was a lot of tapping mana, drawing cards, playing more stuff, dig dig dig dig dig... at any rate, he then tried to kill the table by attacking with everything and having everything fight Grothama, but not die because Vigor, to have a gigantic board of doom. And then the rift happened. And then the green player ragequit because he apparently didn't see this coming (I'm not sure why), and the rest of the table played for another half-hour or so before someone finally won. Whether this qualifies as "improving the game" is of course open to interpretation, but I think it did.


Life lesson: Don’t overextend into blue. I had exactly this happen to me with while going off with an Ezuri deck. It sucks, but it’s fundamentally a play problem, not a card problem.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 9:06 am 

Joined: 2019-May-15 8:39 am
Age: Wyvern
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
I can't remember a single game made better by Rift.

I've seen it used in ways that I'd say are at least neutral - for example, I watched a mono-green player develop an incredibly over-the-top boardstate in a single turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Vorinclex, Patron of the Orochi, etc, powering out a ton of stuff, including Akroma's Memorial, Vigor and Grothama. This took a while - I don't remember all the cards involved, but there was a lot of tapping mana, drawing cards, playing more stuff, dig dig dig dig dig... at any rate, he then tried to kill the table by attacking with everything and having everything fight Grothama, but not die because Vigor, to have a gigantic board of doom. And then the rift happened. And then the green player ragequit because he apparently didn't see this coming (I'm not sure why), and the rest of the table played for another half-hour or so before someone finally won. Whether this qualifies as "improving the game" is of course open to interpretation, but I think it did.


This has tended to be my experience with Rift as well (both my own and other peoples'). I've rarely seen a Rift end a game. More often I've seen it used to stop the guy that just Craterhoofed or Living Death'ed or the like from just bodying the table. Although the most noteworthy was using it to stop Enchanted Evening shenanigans.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 11:00 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MrMoustache wrote:
Quote:
Are very difficult for other players to interact with, especially if doing so requires dedicated, narrow responses when deck-building: YES.

Counterspell and Duress (and their ilk) are hardly "dedicated, narrow responses".

I'm personally relatively apathetic towards Rift (maybe leaning slightly in the pro-ban direction), but if its presence in the format is enough to make Duress and friends worth playing, then that is about as format-warping as can be.

Spot removal in EDH is far weaker than in normal magic because the multiplayer nature of the format turns it from a 1-1 trade to a 1-1-0-0-0 pit of card disadvantage. Spot removal that only works preemptively, isn't guaranteed to hit anything, and which only gets worse as the game goes on is utter garbage.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 1:08 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
First, it doesn't match my experience playing Commander. In my experience, "basic Magic theory" DOES need to be revised to be applicable to Commander - because of the 40 life and multiple opponents, aggro has a significantly harder time putting out pressure than in other formats. Additionally, I would say the ratio of control players at the average table in my experience is higher than 65% of the total players. So, if I'm the only aggro player at a table with three control players with blue, the 'answer' to Rift is to attack all three of them for upwards of 25 damage each before any of them get to seven mana? It sounds like your playgroups have had a lot more aggro players who can team up against control than mine, or you just haven't tried to think about the format from an aggro player's perspective.

I think you've misunderstood my intent. I wasn't saying play more aggro decks, I was saying you should play your deck more aggressively.
My second favorite format is limited and so this ideas stems from that. All decks in limited are midrange decks, but as you play you shift to be more aggressive or defensive based on the game state, you need to know who is playing the beatdown at any given time.

So back to commander, it doesn't matter if you sit down with 4 decks that all plan to be combo/control, the rate at which you deploy your threats and answers needs to vary depending on what your opponents are doing. If you are worried that a player is getting closer to a rift turn, then you should be destroying their things. When I said "hit them" I didn't mean exclusively with damage and being commander part of it is playing politics, "that guy is setting up a rift, kick his ass".

Finally, if we take your example completely literally, if you are aggro against 3 blue decks, then flood the board and start beating down, then make sure they all know that one of them is setting up to rift and whoever keeps a counterspell ready is going to be safe from attacks for 2 turns. They sure don't want the rift to resolve and allow that player to gain that advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 1:39 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-15 11:51 am
Age: Wyvern
I've definitely been on the bad end of CRifts before, and unless someone's using it to shut down someone from winning right then, my anecdotal evidence has seen most Rifts played at the end of the turn before the Rift Player. Sure, it doesn't win the game right there, and you can replay the stuff you've bounced, assuming the Rift player doesn't lock people out of the game with the free turn they just earned themselves.

Also, while yes there's a ton of other spells that do similar stuff as mentioned upthread, ranging from In Garruk's Wake to Wave of Vitriol to Sunder. The balancing factor is every board wipe that I've seen people mention in this thread are all Sorceries, which means the player needs to spend mana on their own turn, balancing the pros and cons of throwing out that board wipe or establishing their own board with more valid plays. Rift can be thrown out pretty much whenever, doesn't require a heavy investment in blue, doesn't affect the player playing it, and hits all non-lands. To compare to white, which is supposed to best in boardwipes, some of the best white boardwipes a) are Sorceries, b) require heavier investment in white than a single pip, c) is more limited in scope than Rift, or d) some combination of the above. Probably the closest card in white that would come close to Rift's power would be Hour of Revelation, and even that's a Sorcery, symmetrical, and requires heavier investment into the color than Rift does (reducing it's splashability).

Quote:
Oh, but you could always counter it or discard it!


Yeah, I've Sunforger'd out a Red Elemental Blast on more than one Rift before. Feels good, man. However, I'm stuck running REB/Pyroblast, Blue, and/or Black spot-discard in order not to just get completely blown out. If I'm playing white, well, I guess I can hope I either bought the Edgar Markov deck two years ago or have the spare cash to pick up a Teferi's Protection, because if not there's fuck-all I can do there. If I'm green? Well, guess I just suck it up and hope I can play out my stuff before discarding, because there's no counter-play there.

And that's kinda my big issue with the card, there's no real counterplay to it. "Git gud" isn't an argument. "Dies to removal" isn't an argument. You pretty much have to be in blue or running cards specifically to answer Rift* to be able to do much about it other than bitch and scoop your board back up. That doesn't really sound like a good thing for the format, imho. OK, yeah, it leaves lands for the players affected, but that doesn't really mean a whole lot because if any of the affected players would've had anything worth playing, chances are they probably would have done something in response to the Rift itself instead of letting it resolve and getting Time Walked.

*And no, I don't count Teferi's Protection in that "specific Rift Answer" group, so please don't try to pull some "Oh, but TP is good regardless of Rift!" pedantry BS.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 11:23 pm 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
You can just punch the rift player. If you just let players do whatever they want for for several turns and then they win with a 7 mana instant you can only blame yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 5:03 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Wyvern
illuknisaa wrote:
You can just punch the rift player. If you just let players do whatever they want for for several turns and then they win with a 7 mana instant you can only blame yourself.


Thanks for proving my point. Why don't we all keep a bunch of fetches up so we don't lose to Tunnel Vision? Because that sucks.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 5:41 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
You can just punch the rift player. If you just let players do whatever they want for for several turns and then they win with a 7 mana instant you can only blame yourself.


Thanks for proving my point. Why don't we all keep a bunch of fetches up so we don't lose to Tunnel Vision? Because that sucks.


Moving the game along by attacking players and making them use answers isn't a bad thing. The best way to get a control player to lose is to not give them 80 turns to draw their win con.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 9:47 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Wyvern
Again I ask, why is the person casting cyclonic rift the control player and not the person that opened the card, specifically in the Teferi precon?


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