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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 3:25 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
Age: Wyvern
Dee123 wrote:
It was introduced way too early through this product line.

Cyclonic Rift was originally released in Return to Ravnica, not a Commander pre-con. It was legal in Commander before that pre-con was released.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 4:00 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
I am well aware. My posts make that clear so people are clearly not reading. This thread is just the same crap that was talked about for Prophet of Krupix and no one seems to get it. No one has anything good to say about this card or that one. Sometimes dumb cards are dumb. Hogaak says hello, and that card means nothing to me. It just represents how cards work over all.

Slow players are slow so 30 mins is not hyperoble either. Even if it is, what is the point of wasting the time when Settlers of Caatan exists? Why do we jump through all the hoops to try and play Magic when so many other games exist if Magic is a train wreck because of these knowledge hurdles? What are people defending this card really defending other than resisting change?

When was the last time someone else cast Cyclonic Rift and you said that as fun?


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 4:31 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Boston, MA
Dee123 wrote:
When was the last time someone else cast Cyclonic Rift and you said that as fun?

When was the last time someone played a Wrath of God and you said that was fun? There are plenty of games I've played in where things would have gotten out of hand if a player hadn't rifted. Its not fun in and of itself, but it can definitely stop unfun things from happening.

In my experience, the games/metas where rift feels overpowered are the ones where not a lot of other removal is being played. If people are playing more mana rocks and threats than removal and interaction, and everyone has ten plus permanents on the board, then yeah, rift is going to hit like a truck and leave behind a serious imbalance. If a wrath is happening every few turns and people are pointing removal at problem permanents instead of just putting out their own threats, rift is just another (arguably slightly bigger) splash in a large pool of interactive plays.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 5:44 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
Slow players are slow so 30 mins is not hyperoble either. Even if it is, what is the point of wasting the time when Settlers of Caatan exists?
I'm wondering why you don't just go do that then, since you keep bringing it up as something you'd rather do...

But, in the case that it's not hyperbole, then the problem you have is with the players and not with any particular card. Which means banning Cyclonic Rift will not solve your problem of feeling like you're sitting around "wasting" time waiting for your opponents to play. As such, that's not a reason to consider banning the card.

Dee123 wrote:
What are people defending this card really defending other than resisting change?
Or perhaps we like to adhere to the goal of trying to keep the ban list as short as possible (the longer the ban list the more inaccessible it becomes especially to new players of the format.) Or perhaps we're trying to dig out all aspects of the card and are merely playing devil's advocate to ensure that it should indeed need banning. The idea that we should agree with you, or are merely just resisting change is akin to name calling -- it does nothing for your position, and only hurts peoples perception of you.

Dee123 wrote:
When was the last time someone else cast Cyclonic Rift and you said that as fun?
I rarely say any card is particularly fun when cast, so that's simply a red herring. That said, the last 3 times I can remember it being cast (involves me and others casting it -- so both sides) .. I didn't have a problem with it. But perhaps it's because me and my playgroup have a general understanding of what we accept and don't at the table, so nobody gets upset when someone does something potentially powerful.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 6:10 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
I used to play with cool Japanese and Korean foils. I don't now. Passing the game on at a precon power level is what it is about now. Magic isn't what it was in the 90s. There is so much competition for entertainment. Fortnite paid a teen a ton of money for winning that WotC isn't going to pay hoping 7 figures is good enough even though they don't get the headlines Fortnite gets.

I am not really sure what else to say. There are trap cards. Rift is one. Wrath can stagnate the game, but generally, the cards are gone and it moves on. Rift just stalls the game until the same stuff comes back.

Maybe this will help. I have played all the games with Elesh Norn I want to play. That card went away. If it was in a precon, that would be bad. The end result is what is the cost of paying Magic forward? Should we play bad games or just ban bad cards? Or just quit on Magic and play something else? WOTC treats B01 arena totally different than other formats so those people are happy. Why shouldn't bad cards for commander be tossed out so it is fun? I just don't get defending this card.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 6:20 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Dee123 wrote:
What are people defending this card really defending other than resisting change?
Or perhaps we like to adhere to the goal of trying to keep the ban list as short as possible (the longer the ban list the more inaccessible it becomes especially to new players of the format.) Or perhaps we're trying to dig out all aspects of the card and are merely playing devil's advocate to ensure that it should indeed need banning. The idea that we should agree with you, or are merely just resisting change is akin to name calling -- it does nothing for your position, and only hurts peoples perception of you.

Personally I'm just discussing particular points in the thread since I don't have a strong opinion on Cyclonic Rift other than there needs to be more one-sided-ish blue board wiping cards that are good but not as good.

I think a slightly longer banlist would the format more accessible, but I dunno if Cyclonic Rift needs to be on it.


Dee123 wrote:
I am well aware. My posts make that clear so people are clearly not reading. This thread is just the same crap that was talked about for Prophet of Krupix and no one seems to get it. No one has anything good to say about this card or that one. Sometimes dumb cards are dumb. Hogaak says hello, and that card means nothing to me. It just represents how cards work over all.

Nobody's going to read all of your posts; let's be realistic. Nobody's going to read all of mine either. Our posts might be really important to both of us and we might remember everything we said, but that's just not the case for everyone else. Personally most stuff I read blurs together after a day at most.

We hear you, but that doesn't mean we all agree. But then we aren't the ones who need to agree; the CAG and RC are. See Iona—loads of people vocally calling that she needed to be banned for years didn't do a damn thing in and of itself, but it sounds like maybe the CAG is upsetting the status quo in a good way.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 6:28 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
I used to play with cool Japanese and Korean foils. I don't now.
What does that have to do with Cyclonic Rift?
Dee123 wrote:
Passing the game on at a precon power level is what it is about now.
Care to explain what you mean by that? As I'm not sure what that means.

Dee123 wrote:
Why shouldn't bad cards for commander be tossed out so it is fun? I just don't get defending this card.

You haven't successfully defended your position that Cyclonic Rift is a bad card. Also, it sounds like an eternal style format where there isn't a rotating list of valid sets is just not for you. It sounds like you'd hate Vintage and Legacy for the same reasons.

So why not try something like Brawl which fits better with what you want? (out with the old & used, in with the new unexplored stuff.) What you seem to be having issues with isn't specifically Cyclonic Rift, it's merely your current target. You're going to have the next one afterwards -- such as if Elesh Norn sees more play in your area/playgroup (from your description.)

spacemonaut wrote:
I think a slightly longer banlist would the format more accessible, but I dunno if Cyclonic Rift needs to be on it.
Oh, it's a balance for sure -- for example having a shorter list is better for the format, but having Emrakul not banned is worse -- so you let the ban list expand appropriately. (and it lets the format be more accessible as you don't have a horrible card to worry about.) But it sounds like Dee123 would put every big splashy card on the ban list once the novelty of the card has worn off. That's not what the ban list is for :)


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 6:47 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Dee123 wrote:
I used to play with cool Japanese and Korean foils. I don't now.
What does that have to do with Cyclonic Rift?
Dee123 wrote:
Passing the game on at a precon power level is what it is about now.
Care to explain what you mean by that? As I'm not sure what that means.

Dee123 wrote:
Why shouldn't bad cards for commander be tossed out so it is fun? I just don't get defending this card.

You haven't successfully defended your position that Cyclonic Rift is a bad card. Also, it sounds like an eternal style format where there isn't a rotating list of valid sets is just not for you. It sounds like you'd hate Vintage and Legacy for the same reasons.

So why not try something like Brawl which fits better with what you want? (out with the old & used, in with the new unexplored stuff.) What you seem to be having issues with isn't specifically Cyclonic Rift, it's merely your current target. You're going to have the next one afterwards -- such as if Elesh Norn sees more play in your area/playgroup (from your description.)

spacemonaut wrote:
I think a slightly longer banlist would the format more accessible, but I dunno if Cyclonic Rift needs to be on it.
Oh, it's a balance for sure -- for example having a shorter list is better for the format, but having Emrakul not banned is worse -- so you let the ban list expand appropriately. (and it lets the format be more accessible as you don't have a horrible card to worry about.) But it sounds like Dee123 would put every big splashy card on the ban list once the novelty of the card has worn off. That's not what the ban list is for :)


I am 40. I am guessing you are young. There was a time where flashy cards were fun. That was what I meant. I am a collector and have cool stuff. That stuff just isn't cool anymore given my young, inexperienced audience. The game is really hard and knowing what is cool just isn't realistic anymore given how just knowing how to play is harder now that cards aren't called Steal Artifact.

That is what I tried to explain. Yes, on the surface it has nothing to do with rift. It is about perspective. Why keep that card around now? This topic comes up too often to ignore that it is a net negative.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 6:54 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Also, I would like to say I play Old School on occasion. Rare, but it can be fun. I have Legends cards most folks don't. I get the nostalgia formats. Commander has changed and isn't that now.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 7:27 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
I am 40. I am guessing you are young.
Nope, older than you. Which is why it usually sucks to make assumptions.

Dee123 wrote:
There was a time where flashy cards were fun. That was what I meant. I am a collector and have cool stuff. That stuff just isn't cool anymore given my young, inexperienced audience. The game is really hard and knowing what is cool just isn't realistic anymore given how just knowing how to play is harder now that cards aren't called Steal Artifact.

That is what I tried to explain. Yes, on the surface it has nothing to do with rift. It is about perspective.

Sooo... a complete red herring to the topic at hand. Great. Now we know we can ignore that bit.

Dee123 wrote:
Why keep that card around now? This topic comes up too often to ignore that it is a net negative.

Many cards keep coming up. Some get banned some don't. Just because it comes up for discussion doesn't mean it's a net negative. You keep claiming it is, but I don't feel you've made your case that it actually is. All I've seen you do in this thread (recently) is make emotional claims that don't have relevancy on banning a card or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 7:35 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
Age: Wyvern
Dee123 wrote:
I get the nostalgia formats. Commander has changed and isn't that now.

It sounds more like that's true for you. Everyone I've played Commander with usually plays with their own decks that they've hand-built. We're all in our mid- to late-30s (so only a couple years younger than you) and we all play with cards going from Alpha (interesting that you mentioned Steal Artifact, because I have that card from Alpha in my mono-blue steal everything deck) to Commander 2019 (and beyond). We all play with cards we've had in our collections for 20+ years.

That's not to say that my experience is any more valid than yours, but rather to say that your experience isn't the only one. For some people and playgroups, it's still a nostalgia format. For other people and playgroups, it isn't. Cards shouldn't be banned just because some playgroups play a certain way. My playgroup would never play, say, Armageddon, but I would never argue for it to be banned just because we don't like it.

If you have players playing with the Teferi pre-con and you want them to remove the Cyclonic Rift, talk to them about it. Suggest a comparable (but less frustrating) card to replace it (and if you own that card, maybe give it to them).


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 9:38 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Fair enough. Magic is a stick-in-the-mud game. We will play other stuff. Thanks for the conversation. I know Internet stuff can be hard to understand tone. I mean it genuinely. Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 10:09 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Maybe I’m missing something huge here but Rift’s presence in the pre-con seems to be a complete and total red herring. To start, people usually bring up precons as a way to argue against a ban, as it effectively makes decks built specifically for new players illegal. It’s (one of) the main argument(s) against the banning of Sol Ring and was pretty much the only thing anyone complained about when Trade Secrets was banned.

But more importantly, I think in this particular case the argument does not apply at all. We’re talking about a 5+ year old precon that most shops and sites don’t carry anymore and happens to be helmed by one of the most oppressively powerful commanders in the format. The idea of a new player getting the Teferi precon and ruining games because of Rift seems like about as negligible of a risk as anything can be.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 12:54 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
I can't remember a single game made better by Rift.

I've seen it used in ways that I'd say are at least neutral - for example, I watched a mono-green player develop an incredibly over-the-top boardstate in a single turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Vorinclex, Patron of the Orochi, etc, powering out a ton of stuff, including Akroma's Memorial, Vigor and Grothama. This took a while - I don't remember all the cards involved, but there was a lot of tapping mana, drawing cards, playing more stuff, dig dig dig dig dig... at any rate, he then tried to kill the table by attacking with everything and having everything fight Grothama, but not die because Vigor, to have a gigantic board of doom. And then the rift happened. And then the green player ragequit because he apparently didn't see this coming (I'm not sure why), and the rest of the table played for another half-hour or so before someone finally won. Whether this qualifies as "improving the game" is of course open to interpretation, but I think it did.


I’ve read half of the comments so if I repeat something sorry that I’m not done with the other 2 pages of opinions on the matter of cyclonic rift.

I quoted this for two reasons one it shows a great example of someone getting the game ripped from them and this could have been just as possible with evacuation as it could have been with rift. I also think, as mentioned on another post in strategy, that cyclonic rift is definitely a bar of entry of how good of a player you are in the format overall. I don’t think a one to one answer for this card is required as much as general player knowledge and the ability to play around the card itself. It’s not even a true wrath and worst yet in some cases it kingmakers an opponent just to give you one more turn of what essentially is a fog with downsides.

Other then countering the spell you can force a board that’s makes it unplayable and if that doesn’t suit you just remove it from the deck using stuff like bitter ordeal or name a good discard effect thought-knot seer.

Typically removal has to do more then rift if it’s going to be banned. Looking at other cards on the ban list and none of them seem like removal or ‘just removal’. The ones that are like rift also change your life to less then 7 or to 1. So that’s a huge difference.

As for how old I am 28 if that means anything but I’ve been playing for over a decade and remembered the time people started playing edh before it was sanctioned. When venser shaper servent was a hassle to deal with because people would sac it to replay it from the general zone bounce it with Crystal shard.

If you are an older player then you would remember evacuation tricks that kept being played over and over. Which was worst in some ways because it’s so easy to reoccur using any creature that returns a instant. Cyclonic rift might be a card that feels bad, but under its soft underbelly lies lots of potential to outright win the game if one plays to their outs. Again I’m not saying anyone is bad just that the game is more about playing around something then actually directly answering that thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-31 12:11 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-01 6:00 am
Age: Wyvern
Just to add my view here: Rift is the single most used card after Sol Ring in our Meta. When anyone (but me) plays blue, there will be a rift.

It is a boring card and very imbalanced like no other card at all!
I would love to see that card gone for good, as it does not add anything to edh and makes blue, the already strongest color, even stronger with an unequaled removal spell.


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