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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-30 6:50 am 
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Age: Wyvern
Carthain wrote:
Melriken wrote:
cards like Chaos Wand or knowledge pool exist, everyone’s graveyard order matters.
So if you are playing with a card where it matters, then just tell people. In fact, isn't that what we do right now? There are so few of them in the game, you can quickly say "Hey, anyone playing with cards that care about graveyard order" before you do something that would reorder it. So I still don't really see how your example is any different than now. Should we ban the handful of cards that care about graveyard order so that we never have to worry about the rule? Or should we let people play with the cards that they have so long as they don't significantly impact other people's fun in a negative way?


I know several people who when asked 'does your deck care about graveyard order' answer yes. To the best of my knowledge none of those people are actually playing any cards in any of their decks that care about graveyard order, but they don't want to tell you what they are and are not playing before the game... they also put their commander down on the table face down and shuffle their deck only turning the commander face up after everyone has picked a deck.

I have also known people to answer 'no' then realize they are playing Phyrexian Furnace or something similar and never realized it was different from Relic of Progenitus or Scrabbling Claws.

And no I don't think we should ban the cards that care about Graveyard order, there are enough of them and they are played enough that I think they are worth keeping. In the world where Really Bad Zombify was the only one? yes I would ban it.

Carthain wrote:
Melriken wrote:
But it being old and bad makes it unlikely [to be played]
Unlikely sure -- but it may be someone's pet card. I occasionally play with Mesa Pegasus because I have a liking of the card due to playing casual back in the early 90's. There's very little reason to put it in a Commander deck, except it brings a smile to my face when I have it out along with Sacred Mesa.

Melriken wrote:
it was replying to ‘this card came out of left field’
I don't think that's what Dee123 was saying. I think He/She was saying that the idea that people may enjoy it might be coming out of left field. Nothing implied that it was 'this card came out of left field'.

Hmm, that isn't what I took it to mean, but it could be.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-30 7:00 am 
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Joined: 2018-Mar-20 10:30 am
Age: Wyvern
Jeyal wrote:
Shoe wrote:
Melriken wrote:

Not counting the Elder Dragons, How many of The Legends from the Legends set have you played with?

Specifically of these 11 how many have you played with?



almost all of them.

decklist for proof, i can dig up more decklists if you want

barktooth warbeard - https://deckbox.org/sets/2408235


I've done two of them. Jasmine Boreal, and Sivitri Scarzam.

Personally, on the actual topic at hand, I'm looking forward to being able to say "If you don't show a sliver of threat assessment, I WILL TURN THIS GAME AROUND" in my best Angry Dad voice and elicit groans from all present. Every card has its audience. Even the REALLY BAD ZOMBIFY.


/shrug mold demon?


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-30 10:39 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Melriken wrote:
The main issue I have with Aeon Engine is the same as the main issue I had with Firesomg and Sunspeaker. A unique buy a box promo that I didn’t want anyhow wasn’t hard to get ahold of because it was bad... but I knew if they ever made a good one it would be a nightmare... and it was.

OK... that's not a reason to ban a card. That's a reason to maybe ban the good one if and when they print it. Aeon Engine is not ban worthy. Full stop. If they make a broken version, then the discussion of banning the broken one is worth having, but as of right now, there is no reason to act.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-31 1:47 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Melriken wrote:
The main issue I have with Aeon Engine is the same as the main issue I had with Firesomg and Sunspeaker. A unique buy a box promo that I didn’t want anyhow wasn’t hard to get ahold of because it was bad... but I knew if they ever made a good one it would be a nightmare... and it was.

OK... that's not a reason to ban a card. That's a reason to maybe ban the good one if and when they print it. Aeon Engine is not ban worthy. Full stop. If they make a broken version, then the discussion of banning the broken one is worth having, but as of right now, there is no reason to act.

That isn’t the reason to ban it. The reason to ban it is that it makes every game it is played in less fun then it woould have been if it had been ANY other card and it amplifies an undesired aspect of the game.

I don’t expect to see it often but I do expect those game to be less fun. And I think it is not unreasonable for a blue instant with the same effect to show up at a competitive cost... and that would be very bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-31 9:31 pm 
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Location: New Hampshire
Melriken wrote:
That isn’t the reason to ban it. The reason to ban it is that it makes every game it is played in less fun then it woould have been if it had been ANY other card and it amplifies an undesired aspect of the game.

I'm not buying that one. You're essentially arguing that Aeon Engine is the least fun card legal in the format right now, and putting aside the issue of the subjective nature of what fun is, I find that pretty hard to swallow. There are some pretty unpleasant cards out there.

Melriken wrote:
I don’t expect to see it often but I do expect those game to be less fun. And I think it is not unreasonable for a blue instant with the same effect to show up at a competitive cost... and that would be very bad.

Again, we can look at banning a spell version if and when it is printed. "They might make a more pushed version of this later" is not a reason to ban something.

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-31 11:45 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Melriken wrote:
I don’t expect to see it often but I do expect those game to be less fun. And I think it is not unreasonable for a blue instant with the same effect to show up at a competitive cost... and that would be very bad.

Again, we can look at banning a spell version if and when it is printed. "They might make a more pushed version of this later" is not a reason to ban something.


Wow, I mean I think people ban things too quickly, but banning something before it is even spoiled is probably a record. Banning something because something even stronger might be printed at some point is just absurd.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 2:41 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
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Just off the top of my head, without even delving into cards that can in theory be enjoyable like Sire of Insanity or Blood Moon. Heck, based on that other thread that's going on about now I think most people would put Aeon Engine far behind Cyclonic Rift.

Honestly, what I'm being reminded of most is this thread. Is Aeon Engine an uninteresting and unfun card? Probably. Is it uniquely so or worth focusing any real attention on? Not in the slightest.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 11:06 am 
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For what it's worth....
as soon as I saw Aeon Engine I knew it was going in my Karn, Silver Golem deck along with Unwinding Clock and Prototype Portal

The rudest thing you can do at that point is turn the game into a two player game, by making a copy on each players turn and activating last turns copy on the next turn. But my Karn deck in general does rude things like that, so players are expecting it.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-02 6:43 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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Location: New Hampshire
moraff wrote:
For what it's worth....
as soon as I saw Aeon Engine I knew it was going in my Karn, Silver Golem deck along with Unwinding Clock and Prototype Portal

The rudest thing you can do at that point is turn the game into a two player game, by making a copy on each players turn and activating last turns copy on the next turn. But my Karn deck in general does rude things like that, so players are expecting it.

OK, sure... but you could just as easily do this with, say, Mindslaver, and just straight-up win. In what world is Aeon Engine more bannable than Mindslaver? And we're still talking about a 3+ card combo to do this. That's a lot of hoops to jump through... it feels like the kind of thing you'll do once and then never bother again.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-02 12:53 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Melriken wrote:
/shrug mold demon?

Gitrog Monster

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-03 1:48 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Melriken wrote:
That isn’t the reason to ban it. The reason to ban it is that it makes every game it is played in less fun then it woould have been if it had been ANY other card and it amplifies an undesired aspect of the game.

I'm not buying that one. You're essentially arguing that Aeon Engine is the least fun card legal in the format right now, and putting aside the issue of the subjective nature of what fun is, I find that pretty hard to swallow. There are some pretty unpleasant cards out there.

Yup. With a side of shining a spotlight on game aspects that we don’t want spotlights on. The argument is stronger as a reason not to make the card, but that ship has sailed and banning it is the closest option left.

I do believe that Aeon Engine is less overall fun and less useful than stasis, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Expropriate, vorinclex, voice of hunger, and Time Stretch.

Those are the 6 highest salt cards that are not currently banned in Commander. The top two attack everyones mana with no Benifit to the caster. The next does too, but can be turned off before the caster’s turn to benifit them. Two of the next three take multiple extra turns and the other boosts the caster’s mana and hurts everyone else’s mana.

Aeon Engine has all the downside of something like Time stretch, it makes someone not take a turn for 5 turns (in a 4 player game you usually don’t get a turn for 3 turns, time stretch adds 2 to that for a total of 5) without the upside of pushing someone towards victory by letting them fully commit one turn to attacking (all the mana for turn 1 goes to the stretch, turn two goes to the attack, turn three goes to solving remaining problems and setting up defenses, creatures can be used in turn 1 to attack as well.).

Aeon Engine also does something strange. It prevents the table from doing things... whenever possible people commit resources at the end step of the turn before them. Flash out creatures, use effects like Azami to draw cards, etc. with Aeon Engine on the board all of that stops for fear of the turn order reversing and your shields being down for a full turn cycle... which slows the game down like a winter orb, stasis or Static orb (which is card 8 on the salt list.)

Aeon Engine has much of the downside of some of the worst cards in the format (worst for the format) without the up side. I kinda hope people start playing it as an anti-cyclonic Rift (end step rift... someone else activates aeon Engine to give the table a turn to redeploy so the rift player doesn’t just win) card just to shine enough of a spotlight on it to get it banned because I do think it is worse for the format than any other card ever. And I don’t like the idea of hoping lots of people play many bad games of magic... feels bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-03 6:36 am 
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Melriken wrote:
I do believe that Aeon Engine is less overall fun and less useful than stasis, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Expropriate, vorinclex, voice of hunger, and Time Stretch.

You need to recognize that you may be alone in that particular camp. And, if not, then the group of people who think the same way as you is pretty small compared to the size of all Commander players.

Melriken wrote:
Aeon Engine also does something strange. It prevents the table from doing things... whenever possible people commit resources at the end step of the turn before them. Flash out creatures, use effects like Azami to draw cards, etc. with Aeon Engine on the board all of that stops for fear of the turn order reversing and your shields being down for a full turn cycle... which slows the game down like a winter orb, stasis or Static orb (which is card 8 on the salt list.)

Hrmmm that's an upside I hadn't thought of (haven't played with/against it yet). Notice that unlike you, I consider that to be an upside. Why? Because it alters people's play patterns from the "always behave in pattern X" to making them think about if they really want to do it or not. These situations can frequently cause new and different (and thus to me, interesting) play paths of the game.

It sort of feels in this thread that it is your voice (opinion) vs many ... if most people aren't seeing a problem with the card, why should we ban it? I've had people express to me locally (years ago) about how bad Spell Burst is. Does that mean we should ban it format-wide simply because someone is having a bad time with the card? What do you think, should Spell Burst be banned? Or perhaps it's time to put the arguments against Aeon Engine to rest -- and if it does get banned, you get to do a dance and point at us and say "I told you so."


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-03 12:25 pm 
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Carthain wrote:
Melriken wrote:
I do believe that Aeon Engine is less overall fun and less useful than stasis, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Expropriate, vorinclex, voice of hunger, and Time Stretch.

You need to recognize that you may be alone in that particular camp. And, if not, then the group of people who think the same way as you is pretty small compared to the size of all Commander players.

I recognized I was in the minority before starting the thread. I did think I was in a larger minority then it appears that I am in. That doesn't make me wrong, but it does make it unlikely for me to get my way.
Carthain wrote:
Melriken wrote:
Aeon Engine also does something strange. It prevents the table from doing things... whenever possible people commit resources at the end step of the turn before them. Flash out creatures, use effects like Azami to draw cards, etc. with Aeon Engine on the board all of that stops for fear of the turn order reversing and your shields being down for a full turn cycle... which slows the game down like a winter orb, stasis or Static orb (which is card 8 on the salt list.)

Hrmmm that's an upside I hadn't thought of (haven't played with/against it yet). Notice that unlike you, I consider that to be an upside. Why? Because it alters people's play patterns from the "always behave in pattern X" to making them think about if they really want to do it or not. These situations can frequently cause new and different (and thus to me, interesting) play paths of the game.

I view it's ability to fight against dominate play patterns (use of Cyclonic Rift, use of leyline of anticipation style effects, etc) as a positive, but the general reduction of play activity as a net negative. One of the goals of this thread was to start a conversation in the hopes of finding arguments for and against Aeon Engine. This is something that came out of that conversation that you and I (and others) were not aware of before hand and a benefit of the conversation.
Carthain wrote:
It sort of feels in this thread that it is your voice (opinion) vs many ... if most people aren't seeing a problem with the card, why should we ban it? I've had people express to me locally (years ago) about how bad Spell Burst is. Does that mean we should ban it format-wide simply because someone is having a bad time with the card? What do you think, should Spell Burst be banned? Or perhaps it's time to put the arguments against Aeon Engine to rest -- and if it does get banned, you get to do a dance and point at us and say "I told you so."
Throughout this thread the proponents of Aeon Engine have primarily made two arguments:
1: Aeon Engine is a bad card, no one will play it.
2: I am going to put Aeon Engine into my deck designed to make everyone else at the table miserable (possibly as a secondary copy of Mind Slaver)

If that is the general consensus then I think it should be banned (and I understand that others want the ban criteria to be absolute harm based not net harm based (or both)). Spell Burst doesn't fit that description, yes some people don't include spell burst because it isn't useful (costs too much mana), others include it because it can counter everything (literally for someone like Mizzix with counter based mana sources and proliferate effects with Tefari), others still include it because they can counter one thing a turn with it (those are the ones using it more or less fairly). Even if Spell Burst was only used for the first two it would still not be worth banning. The piece that truly sets Aeon Engine apart is the strength of the card is strongly tied to play order, something that should be minimized not increased.

I like that this conversation is forcing me to rationalize my point and look at it from different perspectives. I feel that the conversation is a net positive even if I don't convince anyone of my point or change my mind, I value your input in the conversation and would enjoy you continuing in the conversation. That said if you are being bothered by it I understand and support you deciding to leave it, it isn't my goal to drag anyone through an unpleasant experience here.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-03 1:19 pm 
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Melriken wrote:
One of the goals of this thread was to start a conversation in the hopes of finding arguments for and against Aeon Engine. This is something that came out of that conversation that you and I (and others) were not aware of before hand and a benefit of the conversation.
So.. yay?
Melriken wrote:
Throughout this thread the proponents of Aeon Engine have primarily made two arguments:
1: Aeon Engine is a bad card, no one will play it.
2: I am going to put Aeon Engine into my deck designed to make everyone else at the table miserable (possibly as a secondary copy of Mind Slaver)

If that is the general consensus then I think it should be banned

Except, a card needs to do much more than that before it is banned in this format. Have you seen the banning guidelines? (honestly I forget, and am a bit lazy atm to go back through the thread.)

There are plenty of cards that are miserable to play against, and they're all still legal. What puts this one over the line? I mean, sure, it can suck when used at a certain time... but so can Mindslaver and that can be worse than just boring .. it can actually set you back a lot as well as make it take "forever" (quotes 'cuz it's hyperbole, not cuz I think you said that term anywhere) for them to get a turn again. And with all that, Mindslaver (and it's effects on other cards) can also be one of the few ways for someone to lose access to his/her commander. ... so it can decidedly play poorly with the format specific rules. ... but it's still legal after all these years.

So why is Aeon Engine worse than Mindslaver?


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-05 12:21 pm 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
Aeon Engine is an extremely dumb card but it shouldn't be banned.


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