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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 1:39 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Melriken wrote:
Pretend for a minute that the following card exists:
Really Bad Zombify 3BB
Sorcery
Play really Bad Zombify only before combat. Return the top creature card in your graveyard to the battlefield.

Further pretend that in the history of magic that is the ONLY card that cares about graveyard order, it was originally printed in Portal (original) and has never been reprinted.

Legacy (as it does) requires that cards in graveyard maintain order.
Standard (as it does) does NOT require cards in graveyards maintain order.
Commander players don't want to have to maintain graveyard order because it makes playing decks that care about cards in the graveyard harder.

Really Bad Zombify is a HORRIBLE card that appears in exactly ZERO decks... should it be banned (so the graveyard order rule can be removed)?


see, this argument makes me say "no". id love really bad zombify, and try to build a deck around it because it has a unique effect, and isnt legal anywhere else. players like me are drawn to commander because wierd stuff is both legal, and almost any card is viable in the rigt deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 12:09 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Melriken wrote:
Pretend for a minute that the following card exists:
Really Bad Zombify 3BB
Sorcery
Play really Bad Zombify only before combat. Return the top creature card in your graveyard to the battlefield.

Further pretend that in the history of magic that is the ONLY card that cares about graveyard order, it was originally printed in Portal (original) and has never been reprinted.

...

Really Bad Zombify is a HORRIBLE card that appears in exactly ZERO decks... should it be banned (so the graveyard order rule can be removed)?

No. The only time in your scenario that graveyard order matters, is if someone is playing with that card. In which case, only that person's graveyard order matters. So if a player wants to play the card, then they can also incur the burden of keeping their graveyard order straight. Everyone else still gets to reorder their graveyard as there are no cards that matter about their graveyards.

As it is right now, most people don't play with cards that matter about graveyard order (as there are so few of them, and they're usually not that great) so for the most part in Commander, we can re-order our graveyard all we like (unless someone specifically tells us that they have a card where it matters.)

Melriken wrote:
Your argument is saying no because almost no one plays it (actually no one plays it in this example).
Beyond it being a hypothetical -- how can you be sure that it sees zero play? The format is wide reaching, including many who don't post about magic online. So how can you be certain that a card isn't being played?

Plus, you'll end up with people constantly posting asking why it's banned, since it's just a bad card.

Melriken wrote:
I have played with this effect... I won’t be one of the people who might enjoy it.
Which is most certainly not a reason to ban it, nor a reason not to print another card with that effect. When talking about a card being banned or not, you should really try to keep your personal feelings out of the arguments. It makes your arguments more objective which means they stand on their own and don't rely upon others to feel the same way you do.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 1:15 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The really bad zombify hypothetical is a complete distraction, as that's much more of a logistical problem than anything to do with what the card actually does and it's much more comparable to the legality of manual dexterity cards than it is to Aeon Engine.

Now, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and for the sake of argument grant that the card is in fact incredibly toxic and makes for worse games every time it shows up and does something. In that case, its closest comparison would be something like Wit's End or ServantStone: not worth playing in any deck and therefore not even worth considering banning. Players who want to have fun won't play it because it actively makes the game unfun, players who want to win won't play it because it is awful, and players who want to do both really won't be around it.

Antisocial cards that actually do end up banned are the ones that are actually good. There are decks that would want Sway of the Stars and Worldfire. Limited Resources and Time Vault are incredibly strong in the format. Paradox Engine and Sylvan Primordial were practically format staples, and Leovold and Erayo both dominated the format when they were legal. And if we were to start becoming restrictive with banning cards that have a bigger negative than positive effect on the format... then I'm sure that at least 20 or so of these cards would be banned LONG before Aeon Engine.

That of course is assuming that Aeon Engine is in fact a blight upon fun. In practice, it's really just a chaos card, and a particularly slow and ineffective one at that. Its actual effect on the format is much more in line with a Warp World than anything else, and will only ever be played in decks or playgroups where other cards like Warp World are acceptable.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-28 11:31 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Melriken wrote:
I think cards like Time Stop do good work as basically counterspells, but I think magic is at its worst when ‘you can’t play’ strategies are effective, be they Stax, stasis, mass land destruction, mindslaver recursion, or any of it’s other forms... and I think Aeon Engine tends to fall into that pool more than most other cards and out of that pool less. If Time Stop was a Sorcery that made target player skip their next turn it would be much less damaging to the format than Aeon Engine, and still I think a net negative worth considering for a ban (probably not over that line, but something that should be looked at).

While I agree that "you can't play" strategies are absolutely the worst and most anti-social imaginable - hence why I've long advocated for Iona to get the fudge out, and why STAX is far and away the lamest EDH deck to play... Aeon Engine isn't that. The hoops that you would need to jump through to use it more than once are pretty ridiculous, since it self-exiles as an activation cost (as opposed to as part of the ability resolving) AND ETB's tapped. So sure, if you have Prototype Portal imprinted with AE, AND control Amulet of Vigor (or some other untap method), you can potentially lock out one player. I'm just not concerned about that being a thing. Aeon Engine is a goofing off card for people that want to screw around. And while it does feel like an un-card, it's not one that breaks the game, so... meh.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 12:20 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Your dislike to a card that provides grief is not a reason to add to a ban list that they are attempting to shrink. It is not as good as emrakul and it is no possbility storm. So in the format it will probably stay regardless of complaint.

Atleast it can’t permently exile your commander/general. Have you considered it just a better reason to run good artifact/activation hate?

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 12:25 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Thraximundar wrote:
Your dislike to a card that provides grief is not a reason to add to a ban list that they are attempting to shrink. It is not as good as emrakul and it is no possbility storm. So in the format it will probably stay regardless of complaint.


When/where did they say they were attempting to shrink it? I wasn't aware of the RC having any specific goals regarding the size of the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 1:45 am 
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Joined: 2018-Mar-20 10:30 am
Age: Wyvern
Shoe wrote:
Melriken wrote:
Pretend for a minute that the following card exists:
Really Bad Zombify 3BB
Sorcery
Play really Bad Zombify only before combat. Return the top creature card in your graveyard to the battlefield.

Further pretend that in the history of magic that is the ONLY card that cares about graveyard order, it was originally printed in Portal (original) and has never been reprinted.

Legacy (as it does) requires that cards in graveyard maintain order.
Standard (as it does) does NOT require cards in graveyards maintain order.
Commander players don't want to have to maintain graveyard order because it makes playing decks that care about cards in the graveyard harder.

Really Bad Zombify is a HORRIBLE card that appears in exactly ZERO decks... should it be banned (so the graveyard order rule can be removed)?


see, this argument makes me say "no". id love really bad zombify, and try to build a deck around it because it has a unique effect, and isnt legal anywhere else. players like me are drawn to commander because wierd stuff is both legal, and almost any card is viable in the rigt deck.


Not counting the Elder Dragons, How many of The Legends from the Legends set have you played with?

Specifically of these 11 how many have you played with?

Really bad zombify isn’t just a bad card it is a boring and bad card... also the scenario specified that it appeared in zero decks.

Carthain wrote:
Melriken wrote:
Pretend for a minute that the following card exists:
Really Bad Zombify ...

No. The only time in your scenario that graveyard order matters, is if someone is playing with that card. In which case, only that person's graveyard order matters.
cards like Chaos Wand or knowledge pool exist, everyone’s graveyard order matters.

Carthain wrote:
Melriken wrote:
Your argument is saying no because almost no one plays it (actually no one plays it in this example).
Beyond it being a hypothetical -- how can you be sure that it sees zero play? The format is wide reaching, including many who don't post about magic online. So how can you be certain that a card isn't being played?

Plus, you'll end up with people constantly posting asking why it's banned, since it's just a bad card.
I can’t it was just to make the hypothetical cleaner. But it being old and bad makes it unlikely...
Carthain wrote:
Melriken wrote:
I have played with this effect... I won’t be one of the people who might enjoy it.
Which is most certainly not a reason to ban it, nor a reason not to print another card with that effect. When talking about a card being banned or not, you should really try to keep your personal feelings out of the arguments. It makes your arguments more objective which means they stand on their own and don't rely upon others to feel the same way you do.
that comment wasn’t ‘I don’t like it so you should ban it’ it was ‘they printed this effect before, they will likely print it again’ with a side of ‘I am not worried about a card I haven’t had a chance to play with’ it was replying to ‘this card came out of left field’


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 1:48 am 
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Joined: 2018-Mar-20 10:30 am
Age: Wyvern
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The really bad zombify hypothetical is a complete distraction, as that's much more of a logistical problem than anything to do with what the card actually does and it's much more comparable to the legality of manual dexterity cards than it is to Aeon Engine.

Now, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and for the sake of argument grant that the card is in fact incredibly toxic and makes for worse games every time it shows up and does something. In that case, its closest comparison would be something like Wit's End or ServantStone: not worth playing in any deck and therefore not even worth considering banning. Players who want to have fun won't play it because it actively makes the game unfun, players who want to win won't play it because it is awful, and players who want to do both really won't be around it.

Antisocial cards that actually do end up banned are the ones that are actually good. There are decks that would want Sway of the Stars and Worldfire. Limited Resources and Time Vault are incredibly strong in the format. Paradox Engine and Sylvan Primordial were practically format staples, and Leovold and Erayo both dominated the format when they were legal. And if we were to start becoming restrictive with banning cards that have a bigger negative than positive effect on the format... then I'm sure that at least 20 or so of these cards would be banned LONG before Aeon Engine.

That of course is assuming that Aeon Engine is in fact a blight upon fun. In practice, it's really just a chaos card, and a particularly slow and ineffective one at that. Its actual effect on the format is much more in line with a Warp World than anything else, and will only ever be played in decks or playgroups where other cards like Warp World are acceptable.
Fair, I think it is a more unfun effect then you, but I can respect your arguments...


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 1:57 am 
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Joined: 2018-Mar-20 10:30 am
Age: Wyvern
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Melriken wrote:
I think cards like Time Stop do good work as basically counterspells, but I think magic is at its worst when ‘you can’t play’ strategies are effective, be they Stax, stasis, mass land destruction, mindslaver recursion, or any of it’s other forms... and I think Aeon Engine tends to fall into that pool more than most other cards and out of that pool less. If Time Stop was a Sorcery that made target player skip their next turn it would be much less damaging to the format than Aeon Engine, and still I think a net negative worth considering for a ban (probably not over that line, but something that should be looked at).

While I agree that "you can't play" strategies are absolutely the worst and most anti-social imaginable - hence why I've long advocated for Iona to get the fudge out, and why STAX is far and away the lamest EDH deck to play... Aeon Engine isn't that. The hoops that you would need to jump through to use it more than once are pretty ridiculous, since it self-exiles as an activation cost (as opposed to as part of the ability resolving) AND ETB's tapped. So sure, if you have Prototype Portal imprinted with AE, AND control Amulet of Vigor (or some other untap method), you can potentially lock out one player. I'm just not concerned about that being a thing. Aeon Engine is a goofing off card for people that want to screw around. And while it does feel like an un-card, it's not one that breaks the game, so... meh.

The main issue I have with Aeon Engine is the same as the main issue I had with Firesomg and Sunspeaker. A unique buy a box promo that I didn’t want anyhow wasn’t hard to get ahold of because it was bad... but I knew if they ever made a good one it would be a nightmare... and it was.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 2:04 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
spacemonaut wrote:
Thraximundar wrote:
Your dislike to a card that provides grief is not a reason to add to a ban list that they are attempting to shrink. It is not as good as emrakul and it is no possbility storm. So in the format it will probably stay regardless of complaint.


When/where did they say they were attempting to shrink it? I wasn't aware of the RC having any specific goals regarding the size of the list.



They talk about making sure the ban list doesn’t grow to an extent that makes it hard to play or get into edh for new players all the time. Anytime they talk about bans it’s with making sure the list is slim with cards that make the format unfun or drag it down to repressive levels of degenerate play that makes no one want to play.

My favorite example of this is primeval titan, but if you haven’t noticed they’ve been trying to keep relatively the same number of cards banned for the last decade. I was surprised they unbanned kukosho the evening star or protean hulk. I was even more surprised when they banned prophet without also banning seedborn muse.

All in all I’d like to think the RC is doing their best to make the right call the first time otherwise I don’t understand why it takes so long to ban a card. Also the simple fact that they want the list of banned cards to be small enough to know them all.

Two or three cards probably could come off it but I’m not going to hold my breath.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 3:24 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
How exactly do you see Knowledge Pool and Chaos Wand interacting with graveyard order?

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 4:11 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-29 8:18 am
Age: Drake
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
How exactly do you see Knowledge Pool and Chaos Wand interacting with graveyard order?


If you play an opponent's card that requires an ordered graveyard, you would need to have your graveyard in order.


Edit for grammar


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 6:31 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Melriken wrote:
cards like Chaos Wand or knowledge pool exist, everyone’s graveyard order matters.
So if you are playing with a card where it matters, then just tell people. In fact, isn't that what we do right now? There are so few of them in the game, you can quickly say "Hey, anyone playing with cards that care about graveyard order" before you do something that would reorder it. So I still don't really see how your example is any different than now. Should we ban the handful of cards that care about graveyard order so that we never have to worry about the rule? Or should we let people play with the cards that they have so long as they don't significantly impact other people's fun in a negative way?

Melriken wrote:
But it being old and bad makes it unlikely [to be played]
Unlikely sure -- but it may be someone's pet card. I occasionally play with Mesa Pegasus because I have a liking of the card due to playing casual back in the early 90's. There's very little reason to put it in a Commander deck, except it brings a smile to my face when I have it out along with Sacred Mesa.

Melriken wrote:
it was replying to ‘this card came out of left field’
I don't think that's what Dee123 was saying. I think He/She was saying that the idea that people may enjoy it might be coming out of left field. Nothing implied that it was 'this card came out of left field'.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-29 9:06 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Melriken wrote:

Not counting the Elder Dragons, How many of The Legends from the Legends set have you played with?

Specifically of these 11 how many have you played with?



almost all of them.

decklist for proof, i can dig up more decklists if you want

barktooth warbeard - https://deckbox.org/sets/2408235


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-30 5:57 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
Shoe wrote:
Melriken wrote:

Not counting the Elder Dragons, How many of The Legends from the Legends set have you played with?

Specifically of these 11 how many have you played with?



almost all of them.

decklist for proof, i can dig up more decklists if you want

barktooth warbeard - https://deckbox.org/sets/2408235


I've done two of them. Jasmine Boreal, and Sivitri Scarzam.

Personally, on the actual topic at hand, I'm looking forward to being able to say "If you don't show a sliver of threat assessment, I WILL TURN THIS GAME AROUND" in my best Angry Dad voice and elicit groans from all present. Every card has its audience. Even the REALLY BAD ZOMBIFY.

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