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 Post subject: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-24 2:38 pm 
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Joined: 2018-Mar-20 10:30 am
Age: Wyvern
Aeon Engine {5}
Artifact
Aeon Engine enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}, Exile Aeon Engine: Reverse the game’s turn order. (For example, if play had proceeded clockwise around the table, it now goes counterclockwise.)

Assume a 4 player game... Player 1 went first, 2 second, 3 third, and 4 fourth, during round 6 a player uses Aeon Engine...

...On Player 1's turn. Each player has had 5 turns except player 1 has had 6 turns... two turns later player 2 had had 5 turns and all other players have had 6 turns... seems okay.

...On Player 2's turn. Players 1 and 2 have had 6 turns and player 3 and 4 have had 5 turns. Next turn, player 1 has had 7 turns, 2 has had 6 and 3 and 4 both have had 5... Benefit player 1, loss players 3 and 4.

...On Player 3's turn. Player 4 has had 5 turns, all other players have had 6 turns... two turns later players 1 and 2 have had 7 turns, 3 has had 6 turns and player 4 has had 5 turns... Benefit, players 1 and 2, loss player 4.

...On player 4's turn. All players have had 6 turns... two turns later players 2 and 3 have had 7 turns, 1 and 4 have had 6... seems okay, but note that player 4 is still 'going last'.

Conclusions - When Aeon Engine is used on the turn of the player who went first or last it is fairly neutral to the turn counts of the game, when used during the turn of anyone else it helps the player who went first and hurts the player who went last...

Aeon Engine is never hurts to the player who got to go first... IE the guy that doesn't (statistically) need any help... and never helps the player who went last (ie the guy that (statistically) needs the most help)…

Aeon Engine looks innocuous, but is actually a "jerk card for jerks"™ and should be banned because it does nothing to benefit the game (it can help the person who played it, but it makes for a worse overall experience for the table on average) and just further increases the imbalance of going first.


Last edited by Melriken on 2019-Aug-27 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-24 3:51 pm 
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Location: Duvall, WA
Melriken wrote:


Card tags for ref


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-24 3:54 pm 
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From my perspective it’s just a slightly more annoying time warp that exiles itself. It’s not easy to recur and even if you do it just undoes itself. Dick move? Maybe, banworhty?, not really


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-24 5:25 pm 
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Location: Xenia, OH, USA
It's not even close to banworthy.

It's a one time use thing, 5 mana, and it only reverses the game order. Something that we do in my play group quite a few times (we like to add Planechase to our games)

It was also designed specifically for Commander, the biggest and pretty much only major multiplayer format. It literally doesn't function in non-multiplayer formats.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-24 11:35 pm 
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tgambitg wrote:
It's not even close to banworthy.

Agreed, although I'm not sure what this;

tgambitg wrote:
It was also designed specifically for Commander, the biggest and pretty much only major multiplayer format. It literally doesn't function in non-multiplayer formats.

has to do with whether it should be banned in EDH. Lots of things that were designed with EDH in mind are pretty groan-inducing, and just because something was designed with a given format in mind doesn't mean they did a good job designing it.

Regardless, this card is absolutely not in need of a ban.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-25 2:14 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
For the record, I think it would be entirely accurate to argue that Sylvan Primordial, Griselbrand, Prophet of Kruphix, Paradox Engine, Leovold, and debatably Worldfire were all designed with EDH in mind. And only two of them are worth anything in any other format.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 1:36 am 
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Age: Wyvern
tgambitg wrote:
It's not even close to banworthy.


You are arguing from a ‘it must cause this much absolute harm to be banned’ perspective. I am arguing from a ‘it causes this much NET harm’ point. Aeon Engine does cause players to feel bad and does cause problems. It isn’t as ubiquitous as most cards that get banned because it isn’t strong enough for people to include it in their decks for that reason, much like manual dexterity uncards it only causes the bad, it doesn’t improve any game.

Think of it like volrath’s motion sensor or handcuffs. When commander allowed silverborder it didn’t ban the manual dexterity stuff, but the playgroup I play with the most did (not my idea, but I would have supported it had it not already been done) the playgroup I play with second most didn’t permit uncards at all, some mentioned cards like those above and Gotcha cards as the reasons, and the playgroup I started playing with recently mentioned that at the time they banned manual dexterity and gotcha cards.

I am not saying that Aeon Engine ruins every game it is part of and should be banned because the down side is so high. I am saying that it has no real upside to staying in the format and can only cause harm, thus it should go.

Honestly I don’t expect the RC to ban it, I think the format would be better if they did and I think the conversation is one worth having (mainly do you ban cards based on net effect on the format, what they do at their worst, or some combination), and I find the comment about ‘this happens all the time in our games because we play planechase’ one of the more interesting comments. My playgroup played planechase a lot, when Planechaee II came out we breefly increases how much we play then stopped entirely. We found several of the planes to be unfun and in particular did not enjoy the reverse the turn order effect. Some play groups enjoy this kind of effect and I think they are better served by planechase, I think the rest of us would be happier in a world without that effect at all.

So my question is: Do you think Aeon Engine is a net positive, negative, or neutral to the format? And How do you draw the line on what should be banned?


Last edited by Melriken on 2019-Aug-26 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 1:45 am 
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Age: Wyvern
Oh and, when un was legal did your play group permit and use (forced) manual dexterity cards? If so did they make for net better games?

I think cards like Time Stop do good work as basically counterspells, but I think magic is at its worst when ‘you can’t play’ strategies are effective, be they Stax, stasis, mass land destruction, mindslaver recursion, or any of it’s other forms... and I think Aeon Engine tends to fall into that pool more than most other cards and out of that pool less. If Time Stop was a Sorcery that made target player skip their next turn it would be much less damaging to the format than Aeon Engine, and still I think a net negative worth considering for a ban (probably not over that line, but something that should be looked at).


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 2:51 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I can’t think of a good reason to include this card in any deck archetype outside (maybe) chaos. It’s a bad card, albeit one with an interesting and unique one-time effect. Ubiquity is pretty much a requirement of banning, if no one plays it it won’t get banned. It’s too soon to tell whether this requirement is met, but I’m not concerned - bad card is bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-26 12:46 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Baseline argument - Cards should not be banned because more options is better for the format than less options. Healing salve is a boring, near unplayable cards that provides almost no upside to the format, but it could be useful for someone so we keep it.

All cards therefore get a small positive boost simply for existing.

Aeon Engine skips someone once. That's all it does, the game goes on almost unaffected from that point onwards. It also does it after entering play tapped, so without help it has to sit in play for a turn before it can do anything. It's a glorified time warp that's harder to use and harder to recur.

It might provide a slight negative if someone puts it under a prototype portal, but Ugin's nexus is a better choice if that's what you want to do.

Overall the downside of this card is just not what you think it is, and what we get left with is a nothing card, so to answer your most recent question, I consider it net neutral, and neutral isn't worth banning

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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 3:43 am 
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specter404 wrote:
Baseline argument - Cards should not be banned because more options is better for the format than less options. Healing salve is a boring, near unplayable cards that provides almost no upside to the format, but it could be useful for someone so we keep it.

All cards therefore get a small positive boost simply for existing.

Here is where we disagree. Healing Salve is boring and nearly unplayable with almost no upside. It is also a card with no down side. so the minor positive boost it gets for providing options outweigh the non-existent downside of it and it shouldn't be banned.

Pretend for a minute that the following card exists:
Really Bad Zombify 3BB
Sorcery
Play really Bad Zombify only before combat. Return the top creature card in your graveyard to the battlefield.

Further pretend that in the history of magic that is the ONLY card that cares about graveyard order, it was originally printed in Portal (original) and has never been reprinted.

Legacy (as it does) requires that cards in graveyard maintain order.
Standard (as it does) does NOT require cards in graveyards maintain order.
Commander players don't want to have to maintain graveyard order because it makes playing decks that care about cards in the graveyard harder.

Really Bad Zombify is a HORRIBLE card that appears in exactly ZERO decks... should it be banned (so the graveyard order rule can be removed)?

I say yes because banning the card makes the format better. Your argument is saying no because almost no one plays it (actually no one plays it in this example).
specter404 wrote:
Aeon Engine skips someone once. That's all it does, the game goes on almost unaffected from that point onwards. It also does it after entering play tapped, so without help it has to sit in play for a turn before it can do anything. It's a glorified time warp that's harder to use and harder to recur.

It might provide a slight negative if someone puts it under a prototype portal, but Ugin's nexus is a better choice if that's what you want to do.

Overall the downside of this card is just not what you think it is, and what we get left with is a nothing card, so to answer your most recent question, I consider it net neutral, and neutral isn't worth banning

But that isn't what it does. A sorcery speed timestop that skips target player would be a better card and cause less of a problem. Aeon Engine can ONLY skip the player who went last... or timewalk the player who went first. It makes turn order (who went first, who went second, who went last, etc) matter MORE, and that is already something that gives an unfair advantage to players (it is a bug in the game, not a feature, a necessary evil because the game works better when people aren't all trying to play at the same time) for something that happens outside the game (the die roll to determine who goes first, seating position relative to who lost first).


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 3:53 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
I drafted a lot in the past, and the passing order was second nature to me. It tripped people up that didn't draft a lot. It trips me up now that I am out of practice.

I would have never printed this card. It is more trouble than it is worth if you know the less invested market. But, it is hard to ban because it is easy to remove from your deck since it provides nothing but headaches to players that don't want to deal with this nonsense given the card isn't 'good'.

Side note: These precons suck. The designers were in way over their heads and took for granted crap like this stupid card because they get paid to draft and think this nonsense equals fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 5:03 am 
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Dee123 wrote:
I drafted a lot in the past, and the passing order was second nature to me. It tripped people up that didn't draft a lot. It trips me up now that I am out of practice.

I would have never printed this card. It is more trouble than it is worth if you know the less invested market. But, it is hard to ban because it is easy to remove from your deck since it provides nothing but headaches to players that don't want to deal with this nonsense given the card isn't 'good'.

Side note: These precons suck. The designers were in way over their heads and took for granted crap like this stupid card because they get paid to draft and think this nonsense equals fun.
I agree with the basic sentiment here.

Aeon Engine is the kind of card you get when someone who doesn't play multiplayer designs a multiplayer card... they look for design space that leverages the differences in multiplayer games and don't really understand how that fully impacts things. Luminarch Ascension is another example of this type of design.

And yes I agree that it's power level makes it hard to ban. I think it is worth it if for no other reason then to send a clear message to the designers that the effect isn't fun before they print a 1U cost version or some other card that is actually a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 10:52 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
This is totally out of left field, but I think people might enjoy it. Back when EDH was a dollar rare format, I went through the 3 Kingdoms set and bought some cards that looked fun for the format. Diochchan, Artful Beauty was one. That card is awful in the format if you actually play it. So it cracked me up when it was in Commander Arsenal when they clearly didn't bother to play test it. We all fell into the same trap. There are some super cool cards in that set but the time has passed where it is more for collectors because it is super rare than for players now.

I have never had a lot of confidence in what they print in these Commander focused things since then. Frankly, I will give this precon release some credit in that it doesn't exploit the rules of the format too much. A lot of what has come out since that Arsenal release has pushed the format more towards an un format than a dollar rare format. Still, I am not buying it for whatever that is worth.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeon Engine should be banned
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-27 11:39 am 
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Dee123 wrote:
This is totally out of left field, but I think people might enjoy it.

It isn’t from left field, the effect already exsisted in planechase. I have played with this effect... I won’t be one of the people who might enjoy it.


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