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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-25 1:34 am 
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recurring is abusive himself,

kokusho, ok, its nasty, but to abuse it :s
if your opponent plays kokusho he requires your attention and sure he can possibly win a game with it...

play Recurring nightmare and you'll know what it means
it is too broken with too much cards
Yosei the Morningstar dragon
palinchron
great whale
kokusho
eternal witness
the list is long... tooo long...

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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-25 7:39 am 
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Quote:
I beg your pardon, but I do understand the rules. That's why I specifically wrote the post the way that I did. You can play removal spells to remove the creature(s) that would be sacrificed in response to the Recurring Nightmare itself, while it's still on the stack. Since you seem confused by Sek'kaur's post, note that we are talking about while the spell is on the stack, not the ability.


Yea, I did misunderstand the post. And yea. I tend to get confrontational when people post silliness. But since the comment I was responding to weren't complete, my post stating that someone was naive were unbased. So, I'm sorry.

Recurring Nightmare is still good enough to get banned. Which is what it seems to come down to these days. Being good makes you banned.


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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-25 8:11 am 
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Jayke wrote:
recurring is abusive himself,

kokusho, ok, its nasty, but to abuse it :s
if your opponent plays kokusho he requires your attention and sure he can possibly win a game with it...

play Recurring nightmare and you'll know what it means
it is too broken with too much cards
Yosei the Morningstar dragon
palinchron
great whale
kokusho
eternal witness
the list is long... tooo long...

My question is, what makes this list of interactions different with
    Genesis
    Reya Dawnbringer
    Gravedigger
    Hell's Caretaker
    Doomed Necromancer + Rings of Brighthearth
    Gleancrawler

And the list goes on. Yes, graveyard recursion is powerful. There are many cards that take advantage of it. What makes Recurring Nightmare, which is basically Zombify with a "Sacrifice a creature" buyback cost, so strong in EDH as opposed to the other formats it is in that it has to be banned?


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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-25 8:40 am 
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luxgladius wrote:
My question is, what makes this list of interactions different with
    Genesis
    Reya Dawnbringer
    Gravedigger
    Hell's Caretaker
    Doomed Necromancer + Rings of Brighthearth
    Gleancrawler
And the list goes on. Yes, graveyard recursion is powerful. There are many cards that take advantage of it. What makes Recurring Nightmare, which is basically Zombify with a "Sacrifice a creature" buyback cost, so strong in EDH as opposed to the other formats it is in that it has to be banned?


well actually the reasoning what makes the difference is exactly why its that abusive...
Reya: once each turn
gravedigger: once
hell's caterer :p :once
doomed necromancer + the rings: once each
gleancrawler: once

Recurring nightmare: Once every 3 mana, thats what makes this card Broken, that what makes people abuse it multiple times...
The games where I see Recurring Nightmare abused (regulary) i see it being used 3 / 4 times a turn... this is not Sparta, this is madness...

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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-25 8:41 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-11 10:50 am
Age: Wyvern
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luxgladius wrote:
Jayke wrote:
recurring is abusive himself,

kokusho, ok, its nasty, but to abuse it :s
if your opponent plays kokusho he requires your attention and sure he can possibly win a game with it...

play Recurring nightmare and you'll know what it means
it is too broken with too much cards
Yosei the Morningstar dragon
palinchron
great whale
kokusho
eternal witness
the list is long... tooo long...

My question is, what makes this list of interactions different with
    Genesis
    Reya Dawnbringer
    Gravedigger
    Hell's Caretaker
    Doomed Necromancer + Rings of Brighthearth
    Gleancrawler
And the list goes on. Yes, graveyard recursion is powerful. There are many cards that take advantage of it. What makes Recurring Nightmare, which is basically Zombify with a "Sacrifice a creature" buyback cost, so strong in EDH as opposed to the other formats it is in that it has to be banned?


the difference with those cards is that they are only useable once per turn or once period. whereas recurring nightmare can be used many times a turn if you have enough mana.

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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-25 1:46 pm 
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Put more succinctly, that list is to Recurring Nightmare what Millstone is to Stroke of Genius.

Recurring Nightmare is not a Zombify. Recurring Nightmare is a strange type of ethereal permanent that says, "[3]: Play a triggered ability of your choice."

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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-25 11:50 pm 
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How about actually using the criteria under which cards are banned to base an argument for banning other than just saying "RN is broken and good and hard to deal with so it should be banned"
Yes. Yes it is. Where does that train stop? I find Maze of Ith hard to deal with. Ban it! I just lost a game because my aggro deck doesn't play Wrath effects and I got killed by Simic Skyswallower. Ban it! Scoll Rack gives people ridiculous card advantage (double my effective hand for 1 and tap? Sold!) Ban it! Etc., etc., etc. Anyone could make an argument for a card being powerful and wanting it banned.

Quote:
its power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly higher than both what's expected for its mana cost AND it's power level in other formats


But since it is still amazing in formats other than Elder, it can not be banned officially! If this changes, great. I agree that RN is broken and lightyears ahead of the curve (poor corpse dance). Sorry for needing to be repetitive, but there is no good argument yet to refute that RN should not be banned if one observes the established rules (yeah for judge mentality).


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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-26 12:51 am 
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untill the point that everyone starts to play it because you know it's a winner...

strangely i don't remember a lot of games where i played it and didn't win because of it... perhaps you should also look in the previous posts about it.. i especially liked the quote:

when i play a tutor and i don't get recurring nightmare it's because i don't feel like winning 'right now'

that sayz a lot about the power level...
and yes, it's to high, but hey.. i stopped discussing this a while a go actually because there is always the discussion with someone who loves playing it.. and I love it too...

but that doesn't mean it deserves its spot in any black deck...

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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-26 12:38 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
Jayke wrote:
untill the point that everyone starts to play it because you know it's a winner...

strangely i don't remember a lot of games where i played it and didn't win because of it... perhaps you should also look in the previous posts about it.. i especially liked the quote:

when i play a tutor and i don't get recurring nightmare it's because i don't feel like winning 'right now'

that sayz a lot about the power level...
and yes, it's to high, but hey.. i stopped discussing this a while a go actually because there is always the discussion with someone who loves playing it.. and I love it too...

but that doesn't mean it deserves its spot in any black deck...


Cards do not get banned because everyone plays them. How often a card gets played should have little to no impact on B&R lists.

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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-26 8:45 pm 
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Jayke wrote:
and yes, it's to high, but hey.. i stopped discussing this a while a go actually because there is always the discussion with someone who loves playing it..


I don't like playing it, and I don't like others playing it. What I do like is rules being uniformly applied.


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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-26 9:34 pm 
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Based on a recent game we had, I would say that Recurring Nightmare should possibly be banned. Its down to headsup and theres no way someone can win until they rip Eternal Witness, recurring Recurring Nightmare, recurring Kokusho, etc gg.

norbert88

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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-27 1:47 am 
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iceage4life wrote:

Cards do not get banned because everyone plays them. How often a card gets played should have little to no impact on B&R lists.


true, it gets banned because the amount of time being played is mostly a reflection of its higher power level.. The card is not banned in other formats because there is no format in which this would be more abusive then any other combo etc (f.e. Legacy), except for EDH

for me, as said before, it falls under
#1: A card's power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly in excess of both it's mana cost AND power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm]

because its a multiplayer format, and you have more time in games, recurring nightmare is a recurring problem with a limited amount of solutions.

(ps: i do play it, but i see that it's broken.. so maybe you should play it :) then you'll know :) )

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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-27 2:59 pm 
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It really isn't that difficult to deal with... in a long game like EDH, one should expect graveyard recursion. Therefore, play stuff that hoses graveyards! Responding to RN's ability by stripping the targeted creature from the yard gives you a two for one (countering their RN ability, plus making them sac a guy, not to mention mana cost of RN). Instant speed creature kill was already brought up as a solution (yeah for Rout!). If RN is rampant in a playgroup, they should be working around it rather than whining about how good it is. If you really feel bad about including graveyard removal, remember that it also stops EWtiness, Genesis, Regrowth, and many many more relevant cards (plus many are on a two-for-one (or more), i.e. guys with card graveyard hating abilities like Nezumi Graverobber and Withered Wretch, Morningtide which hits every yard threat there is at once, Ground Seal replaces itself with a cantrip, Night Soil gives you a guy for it, and these are the ones that just came off the top of my head).
If you adamantly refuse to adapt to a strategy (RN is merely the best card of a breed of strategy) you deserve to lose to that strategy (like playing in Extended without artifact hate - you will just lose)


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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-28 3:39 pm 
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I've been following this thread fairly closely, but trying not to interfere so as to let the discussion continue. (It was also interesting to see who could be civil and intelligent ;). Now that Duncan's announcement is out, I figured I'd chime in briefly.

The most important thing I'd like to refute is that Rec can't be banned under principle one. DeadlyDawn's point that rules should be applied consistently (or changed appropriately) is VERY VALID... players rely on those principles. It's also correct that a card must meet both halves of the criteria. Recurring Nightmare, however, is a perfect candidate for principle #1 though.

Fortunately, no one doubts that RN meets the first half so the only question then is whether it meets the second half. If Recurring Nightmare is already broken in regular 2x60/4 play, can it be more broken in EDH? Absolutely. The key is in the amount of mana available to EDH players.

It's not uncommon for an EDH player to have 9-12 mana in play. This means two things:

1) Players have easier access to MUCH larger CIP/LP triggers... probably the most broken card with RN isn't Kokusho, it's Protean Hulk. At seven mana, it's a relative middleweight by EDH standards but if you sac it even once, it's sick. The fact that EDH players can have MANY 6+ mana monsters in their deck to reanimate without fear of them being otherwise dead cards makes it even more powerful.

2) Players don't just activate RN once in EDH... it's usually activated 3 times the turn it comes down. So even if an opponent has targeted hand disruption, they've probably garnered sufficient advantage to win the game with it by the time they lose it. And that's IF someone has it.

So yes, based on the amount of mana available (alone), RN can be banned under principle #1... it's just THAT much more powerful in EDH than it is in regular magic.

However, another nail in the coffin is the difficulty in dealing with it. Responsible EDH players keep at least some graveyard hate around, but usually it takes a turn or two to dig it up. It's unreasonable to expect players to keep their graveyard hate in hand/in play just in case RN shows up... that obviates said hate as an answer to any other recursion strategy. The same goes for permission, which isn't even applicable to all opposing colours.

While the big three principles are the primary grounds for banning cards (and cards require substantial reason for banning... we like to keep the list small), there are certainly other "weighting factors" to consider. Those factors are usually tipping points in an otherwise close-call and if RN had any of those factors going in its favour, the debate might continue longer (but not really)... but it doesn't (and it isn't really that close of a call anyway). It has seen play in other formats (The Mind's Eye factor), is highly splashable (The Black Myojin factor) and is an auto include in any black EDH deck which centers on being as powerful as possible. All it requires to be good is large dudes.

Hopefully that clarifies why we felt Recurring Nightmare is a card which needed to go.. and why it's a clear fit for principle #1.

If I have time I'll chime in with why Kokusho went as well... but in the meantime, just enjoy the fact that there are now many more choices of what creature to tutor for in a black deck :)

G

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AgePosted: 2008-Feb-28 10:32 pm 
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Genomancer wrote:
The most important thing I'd like to refute is that Rec can't be banned under principle one. DeadlyDawn's point that rules should be applied consistently (or changed appropriately) is VERY VALID... players rely on those principles. It's also correct that a card must meet both halves of the criteria. Recurring Nightmare, however, is a perfect candidate for principle #1 though.


Touché; now that elaboration beyond "it's abusable!" was given, I feel satisfied.


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