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 Post subject: Un-ban Crucible of Worlds!
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 9:46 am 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
I understand that on September 1st ban/un-ban decisions will be made, and I want to put in a vote to un-ban Crucible of Worlds.

My understanding is that Crucible of Worlds is banned for the following reason:

"CRUCIBLE:
"When I asked the same question of Genomancer (of the Rules Commitee) he said (not an exact quote), "The reason Crucible is banned is that, while not overwhelmingly broken, the only way to use it is to be a ****."

When you're not going infinite with Fastbond, or simply Stripping a land every turn, Crucible of Worlds is pretty much unexciting (if not useless). Basically, there's no fun way to use Crucible of Worlds, so it's banned."
"

At the end of this post:http://edh.truespace.ca/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=8&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45 I argue that it should be un- banned, mostly in response to the above reasons for its banning. That is to say, it's not very powerful, it's less powerful in multiplayer, and there are legitimate reasons for using it (I claim "there's no fun way to use Crucible of Worlds" isn't true, even if it was a reason to ban a card). I'll note that it doesn't meet any of the normal requirements for a banned card :

# Its power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly higher than both what's expected for its mana cost AND it's power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm]
# it's dollar cost is prohibitive for most players and the card usually detracts from the playing experience of everyone in the game [The Power 8].
# it belogs to a class of cards which can't be consistantly interpreted by all players [Silver bordered cards, dexterity cards]


What do people think about Crucible of Worlds?


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 9:55 am 

Joined: 2008-May-13 11:46 am
Age: Wyvern
If Fastbond and stripping effects are really the only reason Crucible is banned, I'd say unban Crucible and ban Fastbond and Strip Mine (Wasteland I'd say can stay since it can only hit nonbasics).


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AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 11:42 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Scorponok wrote:
If Fastbond and stripping effects are really the only reason Crucible is banned, I'd say unban Crucible and ban Fastbond and Strip Mine (Wasteland I'd say can stay since it can only hit nonbasics).


Or keep 2 cards unbanned and ban the single enabler.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 12:22 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
The point is that there is no reason whatsoever to ban CoW because of Fastbound + stripmine + CoW.

1) It's an extremely difficult combo to assemble.
2) It doesn't do much
3) The combo pieces aren't much good on their own
3) There are much better combos out there with less cards, more effect, more easy to tutor pieces.

For example, Earthcraft and Squirrel's Nest. Or Grindstone and Painter's Servant. Or Taniwa and Armageddon.

Grindstone + Painter's Servant + Crucible of Worlds is a better combo than Fastbound + Stripmine + Crucible of Worlds. The fastbound combo shouldn't even be mentioned.


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AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 12:37 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
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i would be in favor of this....i think strip mine should be the banned card of the CoW+Fastbond+Strip Mine

It is the least fun of the 3 cards and wasteland isnt too broken because non-basic hozers are nessisary


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 12:50 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
I think CoW is a more "fun" card than Strip Mine or Fastbond. If they are the issue I'm in favor of banning them and unbanning CoW.

That said even with the combo going it only really hurts one player.


I think one point against CoW is that it is close to an auto-include in every non-beatdown deck. I mean the card is insane and I'd be happy to add it to all my EDH decks.

Personally I'd say unban CoW and leave the Strip Mine and Fastbond in mutiplayer it can be strong but is far from the strongest possibility.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 1:11 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-28 3:42 pm
Age: Dragon
Life from the Loam + Strip Mine is bad enough. Why add more to that?

Unbanning CoW would make it, strip mine, and wasteland auto-includes in every deck. And they're just unfun. CoW ruins peoples' days, and that's all it does, so leave it banned.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 1:19 pm 
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Out of all those cards, Fastbond is by FAR the problem child.
Everytime someone plays that card around here, the game is over, usually due to double mana cards, and either Future Sight or the Magus there of.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 1:47 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
Scout wrote:
Unbanning CoW would make it, strip mine, and wasteland auto-includes in every deck. And they're just unfun. CoW ruins peoples' days, and that's all it does, so leave it banned.


I'll note that "un-funness" is not a reason for banning a card in EDH. Neither is ubiquity. Land Equilibrium isn't banned, and neither is Sol Ring.

In a multiplayer game, playing strip mine and CoW is not particularly strong. You kill someone's land, you lose a land drop, every other player at the table effectively gains an advantage. CoW is terrible by itself, and it's more difficult to find cards in EDH than with 60 card decks. I wouldn't play CoW + Stripmine in most of my decks.

There are legitimate reasons to play Crucible, for example as a defense against Armageddon. Even if there were not, "No legitimate reason this card should be played" is also not a reason for banning a card in EDH.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 5:21 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
billyh wrote:
I'll note that "un-funness" is not a reason for banning a card in EDH.


On the contrary, "un-funness" is [b]THE[b] reason for banning a card in EDH... or any other rule of the format.

Because fun is difficult to define, and varies between people and situations, there are a number of guidelines we use to help us identify cards which are particularly unfun, or unfun to a problematic number of people. They're also useful for explaining to people why a card was banned, and help us be consistent and transparent. In the end though, they're guidelines and tools, not rules that must be followed. If a card causes too many problems for too many people, it should get the axe... and if those guidelines don't explain well enough, that's a failing in the policy -- not the decision.

Crucible has its proponents on the rules committee, and has been given a serious look at lately. It may be unbanned at some point, but not this time around: there are more pressing issues to deal with and, as yet, the majority still believes that unbanning it wouldn't have a positive impact on the format.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 6:23 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
billyh wrote:
Scout wrote:
Unbanning CoW would make it, strip mine, and wasteland auto-includes in every deck. And they're just unfun. CoW ruins peoples' days, and that's all it does, so leave it banned.


I'll note that "un-funness" is not a reason for banning a card in EDH. Neither is ubiquity. Land Equilibrium isn't banned, and neither is Sol Ring.


Land Equilibrium got owned by Ward of Bones. That card is funfun.

Fastbond is far a worse offender in the case you cite than COW. that's the broken card - an arbitrarily large number of lands played in a turn?

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-29 11:29 am 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
I'd like to make one more argument before being ignored by the faceless rulers of EDH.

Crucible of Worlds is fun. It's the first card designed by the Magic community. It has lots of interesting deckbuilding niches that don't involve Stripmine, for example protecting man lands or card advantage on cycling lands.

Crucible of Worlds gets a bad reputation from the T1 deck Stax. EDH is not Stax. You don't have the density of mana denial (9 spheres, Smokestack, 5 strip effects) or mana acceleration (warshop, moxes, etc.), especially in a 100 card highlander deck.

Crucible of Worlds + Stripmine is a very weak combo. Compare it to Earthbind + Squirrel Nest. The green combo usually wins the turn after it comes into play. The green combo is much easier to search for. The CoW combo is easily disrupted, and it gives players a long time to search for artifact destruction, as opposed to the short time that you have to find enchantment destruction for the green combo. I haven't seen any green decks on this site that use Earthbind + Squirrel Nest. Why would "every deck play Crucible of Worlds and Stripmine"? Some people might. But I would question their deckmaking skills.

Finally, EDH is balanced around multiplayer. Yes, people do play it one vs. one. But the ban list is balanced around what cards are problematic in long multiplayer games. Crucible and Stripmine is terrible combo in a long multiplayer game.

Imagine it's turn 7. All four of your opponents have out 5 lands. You manage to assemble Stripmine and Crucible. You strip the land of one of your opponents. Effectively, you've given your other three opponents a land advantage of +1. There's a reason that duress is great in T1, but terrible in multiplayer games. Now, suppose you continue to destroy the land of the same opponent. Do you think that she won't understand what it happening? She has plenty of time to cast artifact destruction. What do you think the other players will do? They have at least 5 turns (with you stuck at 5 other land) to neutralize your threat. It's obvious what you are trying to do, and the other players have lots of time to attack you. In the politics of a multiplayer game, the worst possible threat is one that is slow, ineffective, annoying, and easily destroyed. It's like asking to be crushed.

Yes, recurring land destruction is a very "unfun" tactic, in some people's eyes. But people who try to do it by putting Crucible + Stripmine in their decks are just nerfing themselves. It's one thing if a banning keeps some unfun strategy from being dominant. In this case, the banning is keeping bad deckbuilders from trying to stuff a unfun and also not very good card combination into their decks.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-29 11:40 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
The decision on what to change this time around was finalized some time ago so that MTGO could be updated in synch. Arguments posted at this point, convincing or not, won't have any bearing on what happens next week. It's not that we're ignoring anyone; I try to give every opinion here some consideration. Crucible just isn't the most important thing that needs to be addressed. Even if it was totally unreasonable for it to be banned (It's not.. at worst, its borderline), being unable to play it officially isn't THAT bad for the format.

Besides... how can we be faceless? Sakashima has at least 9 faces right there in the art!


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-29 12:10 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Scorponok wrote:
If Fastbond and stripping effects are really the only reason Crucible is banned, I'd say unban Crucible and ban Fastbond and Strip Mine (Wasteland I'd say can stay since it can only hit nonbasics).

iceage4life wrote:
I think CoW is a more "fun" card than Strip Mine or Fastbond. If they are the issue I'm in favor of banning them and unbanning CoW.

yawg07 wrote:
Out of all those cards, Fastbond is by FAR the problem child.
Everytime someone plays that card around here, the game is over, usually due to double mana cards, and either Future Sight or the Magus there of.

Philatio wrote:
Fastbond is far a worse offender in the case you cite than COW. that's the broken card - an arbitrarily large number of lands played in a turn?

billyh wrote:
Crucible of Worlds is fun. It's the first card designed by the Magic community. It has lots of interesting deckbuilding niches that don't involve Stripmine, for example protecting man lands or card advantage on cycling lands.

What they said (although I think Forgotten Ancient was the first, but billyh must have, you know, forgotten it).

Crucible is fun. I was drafting someone else's cube the other day and pulled it along with 3 cycling lands and a Windswept Heath and thought "I wish I could do this in EDH."

I, as a proud, primarily GREEN player, would rather see Fastbond banned and Crucible unbanned.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-29 12:27 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
I only oppose it's unbanning because it's an auto-include in every deck.

Even from a non-combo perspective it seems somewhat annoying to keep around. You finally destroyed that Maze of Ith? Sadly, your opponent drew CoW before you did. Armageddon effects with CoW out is annoying plus it curves nicely.

It was my understanding that the Fastbond combo is just the icing on the cake here. CoW makes some of the necessary land-hate strategies nearly impossible.

Loam does this as well but you have to keep playing Loam and letting it go to your GY which seems.. slightly more vulnerable I guess. I dunno, maybe Loam needs the axe too. And I say that as someone that can't build an EDH deck without Loam in it.

Please don't ban Loam!


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