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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-09 12:16 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
paragon_deku wrote:
I wish the social stigma of destroying manarocks in commander would go away

Does such a stigma exist? I was not aware of this.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-09 12:27 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I wish the social stigma of destroying manarocks in commander would go away

Does such a stigma exist? I was not aware of this.
Yeah, me neither.

There's enough mass-artifact destruction that you kind of have to accept that it'll happen (which is what makes Darksteel Ingot a nice mana rock for many decks, even mono-coloured ones).


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-09 3:22 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I wish the social stigma of destroying manarocks in commander would go away

Does such a stigma exist? I was not aware of this.


I've definitely experienced a stigma against targeting a single person's Gruul Signet or Mind Stone for removal, especially early in the game. I can sympathize with that since it does lead to feel bad moments, and in my opinion it's usually pretty bad threat assessment to waste targeted removal on something like that. For something like Sol Ring or Mana Crypt though I have zero sympathy since those cards provide so much advantage early on. And like Carthain said mass artifact removal should be expected and shouldn't really lead to a stigma since it's not just targeting a single mana rock.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 6:07 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
paragon_deku wrote:
I don’t think sol ring should be banned, as I find mana crypt to be more elusive to new players and more frustrating to deal with. On that note, I wish the social stigma of destroying manarocks in commander would go away


At least in my playgroup this is not an issue, but it rarely happend except for an overloaded vandalblast

Nobody in my group will bother wasting a precious removal like Krosan grip in a signet unless he/she is trolling

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 6:51 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
alexev wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I don’t think sol ring should be banned, as I find mana crypt to be more elusive to new players and more frustrating to deal with. On that note, I wish the social stigma of destroying manarocks in commander would go away


At least in my playgroup this is not an issue, but it rarely happend except for an overloaded vandalblast

Nobody in my group will bother wasting a precious removal like Krosan grip in a signet unless he/she is trolling

Yeah I think that's the thing with spot removing mana rocks. It's like, what the heck are you doing? This thing could destroy any number of game-changing bombs, and you just used it on a mana rock? Why would you do that? If someone did that I'd probably be a bit confused and concerned that I might be in for some unfun due to some overcompetitive behaviour that doesn't work well in EDH -- are you operating on 1v1 tactics that don't work well in EDH, or are you the kind of player who seeks to shut individuals out of the game ASAP? Whatever it is, it's a bad sign and doesn't bode well for the game to come. If you could read my expression at that happening you wouldn't be wrong to read that as conveying some stigma regarding spot destruction of mana rocks, even if they weren't mine.

I'm not sure I'd Vandalblast a turn 1 or 2 sol ring even if I had the opportunity -- even if that Sol Ring could change the game a lot I want to see what my opponent can do.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 8:29 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This is an anecdote of limited scope, but playing in MTGO over the weekend I had my azorious signet hit by a naturalize before I got to untap with it. I was definitely taken aback, not because my rock got destroyed, I just played my brain in a jar (which got krosan gripped a couple turns later), but because that player has no idea what threats could be played by any of the other players in the next few turns.

At that point in the game, no-one knows what each others decks are capable of, and so I think hitting a rock like that is a bad play. As far as I can see there are two likely outcomes, either the player kept a sketchy hand with a good 3 or 4 drop, so hitting their rock means they may not hit their 3rd land and be screwed for a while, or you set one person back marginally for a turn and they will continue to play unabated and you wasted a card. Neither is particularly appealing to me.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 9:42 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
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I'd certainly consider hitting a T1 Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, but anything that just "+1's" your mana production including signets (land + signet = 2 mana), talismans, manalith-equivalents etc etc I'd probably leave alone, saving my artifact destruction for something relevant.

Having said that if my opponent has 4 lands and 4 "+1's" in play, I'd certainly consider blowing them all up at once (even without other targets) because they're clearly up to no good.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 10:03 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
Viperion wrote:
I'd certainly consider hitting a T1 Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, but anything that just "+1's" your mana production including signets (land + signet = 2 mana), talismans, manalith-equivalents etc etc I'd probably leave alone, saving my artifact destruction for something relevant.

Having said that if my opponent has 4 lands and 4 "+1's" in play, I'd certainly consider blowing them all up at once (even without other targets) because they're clearly up to no good.

This.

I can also see targeting something like Gilded Lotus that provides a significant boost (5 to 8 and likely 9 mana the next turn), but it's not worth wasting a card on a signet, unless it's incidental - if I'm casting Hull Breach to get rid of someone's problematic enchantment (Oh, you're gonna turn 2 Luminarch Ascension A-hole?), I'd at least consider popping a mana rock, especially if that player hasn't missed any land drops. Or if casting Decimate and there aren't any other artifacts to hit, but you have other targets you want gone... these situations come up. But wasting a card specifically to kill a signet? Nope.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 10:39 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I wish the social stigma of destroying manarocks in commander would go away

Does such a stigma exist? I was not aware of this.

LGS culture is obviously not consistent throughout the world, but in my city most playgroups get very frustrated over it.

Also, to everyone talking about how artifact removal on mana rocks is a waste and bad threat assessment, I usually end up blowing up a sol ring or mana crypt with my elf deck or teysa deck since the first has broken bond and I need mana ramp anyway and the later has so much artifact and enchantment hate that I may as well play that fragmentize.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 10:44 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
spacemonaut wrote:
alexev wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I don’t think sol ring should be banned, as I find mana crypt to be more elusive to new players and more frustrating to deal with. On that note, I wish the social stigma of destroying manarocks in commander would go away


At least in my playgroup this is not an issue, but it rarely happend except for an overloaded vandalblast

Nobody in my group will bother wasting a precious removal like Krosan grip in a signet unless he/she is trolling

Yeah I think that's the thing with spot removing mana rocks. It's like, what the heck are you doing? This thing could destroy any number of game-changing bombs, and you just used it on a mana rock? Why would you do that? If someone did that I'd probably be a bit confused and concerned that I might be in for some unfun due to some overcompetitive behaviour that doesn't work well in EDH -- are you operating on 1v1 tactics that don't work well in EDH, or are you the kind of player who seeks to shut individuals out of the game ASAP? Whatever it is, it's a bad sign and doesn't bode well for the game to come. If you could read my expression at that happening you wouldn't be wrong to read that as conveying some stigma regarding spot destruction of mana rocks, even if they weren't mine.

I'm not sure I'd Vandalblast a turn 1 or 2 sol ring even if I had the opportunity -- even if that Sol Ring could change the game a lot I want to see what my opponent can do.

In my playgroup, mana rocks like sol ring and crypt are almost always either lead-ins to turn 3 combos or let somebody screw over the boardstate constantly.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-10 11:39 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
As an aside, your playgroup seems heavily slanted towards glass cannon combo decks. Do people run any sadistic sacrament type effects?

Lab maniac decks don't work very well without the lab maniac.

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