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 Post subject: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-27 11:04 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 2:38 pm
Age: Hatchling
Location: milwaukee
yawg07 wrote:
Genomancer wrote:
The B&R list will be getting a significant update anyway on Sept 1st, so I'll do it then.


Oh? What is on this update of which you speak? :?:


hopefully time stretch.... if not rethink it... if you fail to win after you resolve a time stretch you need to stop playing this game...

race to 10 manas... resolve time stretch (which happens 90% of the time its played) blow out opponents and win games.


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 Post subject: Re: Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-27 11:37 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
everbeacon wrote:
yawg07 wrote:
Genomancer wrote:
The B&R list will be getting a significant update anyway on Sept 1st, so I'll do it then.


Oh? What is on this update of which you speak? :?:


hopefully time stretch.... if not rethink it... if you fail to win after you resolve a time stretch you need to stop playing this game...

race to 10 manas... resolve time stretch (which happens 90% of the time its played) blow out opponents and win games.


Oh, it's not an auto-win. It rules, but at 10 mana, it better. Black Myojin costs less and wrecks tables more.

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 Post subject: Re: Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 6:47 am 

Joined: 2008-Apr-27 8:14 pm
Age: Drake
Philatio wrote:
everbeacon wrote:
yawg07 wrote:
Genomancer wrote:
The B&R list will be getting a significant update anyway on Sept 1st, so I'll do it then.


Oh? What is on this update of which you speak? :?:


hopefully time stretch.... if not rethink it... if you fail to win after you resolve a time stretch you need to stop playing this game...

race to 10 manas... resolve time stretch (which happens 90% of the time its played) blow out opponents and win games.


Oh, it's not an auto-win. It rules, but at 10 mana, it better. Black Myojin costs less and wrecks tables more.


And don't even get me STARTED on Insurrection....

/doesn't think it needs to be banned either.
//8 mana better do something huge!


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 12:53 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
I do think the stretch needs to go, card is broken in EDH.


I do think I blew my friends minds when I told them I won't just TS any old time. Not even because of counterspell fears. No when I play TS I want to ether win or cripple all my opponents before they get a turn.

If you just throw your TS out there on turn 9 or whatever with an average board position you'll take two turns, bash some people, then get ganged up on.


But yeah I'd be happy to see this and black Myojin (has anyone, ever considered this fun?) go.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 1:01 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
i dont think Time Stretch is Broken.....it costs a shittload of mana which basically means you skip the main phases of one turn for 2 more turns later....

it is REALLY good, but not broken

plus if it gets banned here, it isnt playable ANYWHERE


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 4:09 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-27 8:14 pm
Age: Drake
I must admit to being kind of thrown back with all the issues with Time Stretch and Myojin of Night's Reach. I really don't think its much to ask that 8 mana + spells have a game altering impact.

While I know the cards are played, I have yet to encounter an environment where either card is (1) overplayed, or (2) so crippling that it is impossible to deal with. It sounds more to me like particular players meta-games have heavy use of this card, and they are asking for them to be banned more because they are annoying to them then because they truly break the format.

I am still truly floored that Survival of the Fitest hasn't brought more people up in arms, and brought down the fury of the ban-hammer!


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 4:34 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Thread split, since it was offtopic.

Time Stretch, Mindslaver, Insurrection, and Myojin of Night's Reach have all been given consideration for banning, several times... and none of them were that close.

These all fall under the class of "Chicken little" cards which routinely get people up in arms but actually aren't bad for the game.

Yes, Time Stretch is incredibly powerful... it's MTG's equivalent of the AC-20, so it should be. At ten mana and sorcery speed, it does what it should do... give you an enormous boost, but unless your opponents are atricious you don't win the game every time you resolve it. You'll certainly be in much better shape than you were, and if you were in a solid position, and you have some kind of instant win combo available, and you resolve it... you'll probably win: your opponents should have stopped that snowball long ago. If you were in bad shape then your ten mana sorcery will probably catch you up a long way, and if the game was stable you should be the clear leader. Seems fair.

If, in YOUR meta game, a resolved Time Stretch is always game over... then I'd lay good odds your meta is full of people playing naked combo decks and no one is playing enough good disruption.

The other cards mentioned are similar.. for a huge amount of mana, you get a huge effect; an effect which will do a lot to help you win the game. Sounds about right to me.

Norytt once said that EDH is "Battlecruiser magic"... a phrase that I really liked. 8+ mana sorceries are the cruise missiles of magic and if your meta is a simple "who fires first", then yeah... they're probably game ending and you need to evolve. Better armour, maneuvering, countermeasures... take your pick. But don't complain because you decided to sign up for the the Assault arena and someone cored you with one good broadside.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 6:49 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jun-21 12:01 pm
Age: Drake
Genomancer wrote:
If, in YOUR meta game, a resolved Time Stretch is always game over... then I'd lay good odds your meta is full of people playing naked combo decks and no one is playing enough good disruption.


I couldn't agree with you more. In my meta we have a player who can cast Time Stretch almost every game through a variety of methods and I'm typically the only player at the table with any disruption. So I'm stuck with the decision of either tapping down and playing something or leaving my mana up every turn and setting myself behind. It really pays off to have an adequate amount of hate in your deck, and not just for you, for everyone at the table.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 10:45 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 2:38 pm
Age: Hatchling
Location: milwaukee
you sirs apparently haven't sat across from a deck designed to abuse time walk cards. they go off whether you want them to or not.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 11:09 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
everbeacon wrote:
you sirs apparently haven't sat across from a deck designed to abuse time walk cards. they go off whether you want them to or not.

If your playgroup has found that banning all Time Walk cards leads to a more fun EDH experience, that's fine. However, you're wrong to simply assume there's nothing you can do about Time Stretch combo. Have a look at the most important thread ever:
http://edh.truespace.ca/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=337
When dealing specifically with Time Stretch, the best option is Wild Ricochet, with Willbender in close second. If you're not playing red or blue, just use Jester's Cap or similar effects. Even in mono green you can play Grinning Totem, sac it to find their Eternal Witness, play their Witness, and then reuse Grinning Totem to put Time Stretch into their 'yard.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-28 11:52 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
When dealing specifically with Time Stretch, the best option is Wild Ricochet, with Willbender in close second.


Oh man, this is so true. I Wild Ricocheted a Time Stretch just the other day. It was actually the most thrilling.

When you come across any combo deck, if it's very good, you will have to deal with sorceries and instants. The combos that rely heavily on permanents tend to be pretty medium. If the sorceries that you're forced to deal with cost 10 mana, you should count yourself as lucky.

Other good blue solutions include Misdirection and Knowledge Exploitation. Red has an abundance of Shunt effects. Black has the best cap effects (Nightmare Incursion) and graveyard hate to prevent recursion, although all colours can play them. Gaddock Teeg can be used as a General.

As Genomancer said, though, complaints about Time Stretch usually spring from non-interactive environments. The best was to reduce the power of two extra turns, by far, if to make sure that they can't do too much during those turns. If you play the correct defenses, the two turns will pass relatively uneventfully, and you can get on with the game.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-29 4:10 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Taking 10 to Imp's Mischief a Time Stretch is totally worth it in EDH.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-29 8:38 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Artos wrote:
Taking 10 to Imp's Mischief a Time Stretch is totally worth it in EDH.

I was just thinking of starting a poll on this a couple days ago. I think unless someone has a Hidetsugu in play, the answer is always yes.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-29 2:37 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
iceage4life wrote:
I do think the stretch needs to go, card is broken in EDH.


I do think I blew my friends minds when I told them I won't just TS any old time. Not even because of counterspell fears. No when I play TS I want to ether win or cripple all my opponents before they get a turn.

If you just throw your TS out there on turn 9 or whatever with an average board position you'll take two turns, bash some people, then get ganged up on.


But yeah I'd be happy to see this and black Myojin (has anyone, ever considered this fun?) go.


These are the same as Plague Wind to me. Huge effect for huge cost, much of it in colored mana. And disruptible. If you resolve it against an entire table of unprepared people, your local meta needs to play counters, discard, indestructible creatures, or whatever work-arounds there are to those pet-peeve cards. Or land destruction and/or aggro to keep players from sitting back and doing nothing but laying land unmolested for 7+ turns. This isn't Big Game Hunters map in Starcraft every game.

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 Post subject: Re: Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox
AgePosted: 2008-Aug-29 6:20 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
Nirvana wrote:
Philatio wrote:
everbeacon wrote:
yawg07 wrote:
Genomancer wrote:
The B&R list will be getting a significant update anyway on Sept 1st, so I'll do it then.


Oh? What is on this update of which you speak? :?:


hopefully time stretch.... if not rethink it... if you fail to win after you resolve a time stretch you need to stop playing this game...

race to 10 manas... resolve time stretch (which happens 90% of the time its played) blow out opponents and win games.


Oh, it's not an auto-win. It rules, but at 10 mana, it better. Black Myojin costs less and wrecks tables more.


And don't even get me STARTED on Insurrection....

/doesn't think it needs to be banned either.
//8 mana better do something huge!


Insurrection, in particular, is awesome, even on the losing end.

I once used Godo to fetch Fireshrieker which I then equiped to my Razia (general) who was already sporting a Sword of Fire and Ice. I layed serious smack down, but a turn later, someone played Insurrection, stole everything, swung with Godo, earning another combat step with he and my numerous Vigilant creatures (including my general). I got double strike attacked twice and died from 32 combat damage from my own general (er well I take the 24th point on the first strike step of the 2nd attack but whatever). How cool is that? I think this format is about cool plays and cool cards, and to me Insurrection fits the bill well.

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