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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-30 12:45 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Even without mulligans, the odds of a T1 Skullclamp are roughly 1 in 12. It's not incredibly often, but it's also not absurd. It only seems weird because a T1 Skullclamp isn't the kind of thing where you can build for redundancy. The odds of drawing say a T1 Llanowar Elves are equally slim, but it doesn't seem that way because 90% of the time it's indistinguishable from a T1 Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, Birds of Paradise, Arbor Elf, Noble Hierarch, Elves of Deep Shadow, Avacyn's Pilgrim, or Boreal Druid. Skullclamp on the other hand is ridiculously undercosted, so all the cards that can mimic its effect are all 3-5 mana, and therefore the only play comparable to a T1 Skullclamp is literally a T1 Skullclamp.

Now, a T1 Skullclamp into a T2 Bitterblossom, that'd be a bit more eyebrow-raising. Those odds are more like 1 in 175.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-31 5:33 am 

Joined: 2018-Apr-09 11:02 am
Age: Hatchling
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Even without mulligans, the odds of a T1 Skullclamp are roughly 1 in 12. It's not incredibly often, but it's also not absurd. It only seems weird because a T1 Skullclamp isn't the kind of thing where you can build for redundancy. The odds of drawing say a T1 Llanowar Elves are equally slim, but it doesn't seem that way because 90% of the time it's indistinguishable from a T1 Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, Birds of Paradise, Arbor Elf, Noble Hierarch, Elves of Deep Shadow, Avacyn's Pilgrim, or Boreal Druid. Skullclamp on the other hand is ridiculously undercosted, so all the cards that can mimic its effect are all 3-5 mana, and therefore the only play comparable to a T1 Skullclamp is literally a T1 Skullclamp.

Now, a T1 Skullclamp into a T2 Bitterblossom, that'd be a bit more eyebrow-raising. Those odds are more like 1 in 175.


T1 Skullclamp is just a terrible move. Everbody can dig for a solution the next turn(s) and it will most likely be eaten by a Reclamation Sage or similar random disenchant effect before you get value out of it.

I would rather play turn 1 nothing, turn 2 Bitterblossom and turn 3 Skullclamp :P


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-15 2:19 am 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
Here's a list of cards that should be added to the Commander Banlist:

1. Sol Ring / Mana Crypt - A two-turn mana advantage early in the game is often a blow in which opponents aren't able to recover from that's almost on par with Black Lotus in terms of power level as it was a main ingredient for many of MTG's original first-turn-kill decks at the time.
2. Mana Drain - Similar to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, the amount of mana you get from countering a high CMC card can be too much for most opponents to handle especially If their General is within a color identity that lacks consistent ramp support.
3. Serra Ascendant - The problem with this card is that your starting life total makes this way too easy to trigger by enabling you a 6/6 flier with lifelink that's already strong enough to kill early blockers.
4. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Sure you suffer the same penalty but in EDH decks with just the General as your only creature, you're depleting your opponents of all their resources by having them choose between creatures or mana.
5. Cyclonic Rift - The problem with this card is it's amazing versatility, offering either an early removal or a late-game mass nuke. Sure it takes seven mana to leave your side of the field unscathed but much like with Expropriate it can automatically win the game for you the turn you hard cast it.
6. Demonic Tutor / Mystical Tutor - While tutors are generally required for certain EDH decks to function properly they're often times used to combo out for a win by stealing a resource lead even If luck doesn't favor your opening hand.
7. Gaea's Cradle - It produces twice as much mana as a regular land could produce and once you've accumulated enough mana to cast your fatties, you'll be too far ahead for your opponents to catch up with you.
8. High Tide - For mono-blue builds it's an absurd amount of resources with no real drawbacks.
9. Skullclamp - Creates way too much card advantage for what it does. There's a reason why this card was banned in the original Mirrodin block back when it was Standard legal. I should know since I was around when Elf Clamp was a thing.
10. Iona, Shield of Emeria - Helm of the Host's printing has proved that she's way too powerful in this format when you consider that you can easily lock someone or multiple players out of the game all at once.

Honorable mentions:

    * Mana Vault - Still a lethal way to nab 3 extra mana early game which is fairly easy to get around the drawback with Blood Clock and Umbilicus. Not to mention It's highly unlikely that someone will have an answer to this early in the game unless it's in their opening hand.
    * Brago, King Eternal - Sure 4 CMC isn't super cheap but use a Sol Ring, Ancient Tomb, or Mana Vault and you're basically there. The fact that he scores a free untap with your mana rocks leaving with a super powered arsenal of high CMC spells on turn 4 or 5 is nothing to scoff at.
    * Paradox Engine - At least Brago can only inflict combat damage once per turn, but with the Engine it can re-activate itself as long as you have the mana rocks to keep casting spells. If Paradox Engine only triggered once per turn then it wouldn't be nearly as bad as Prophet of Kruphix was before it got banned.
    * Tooth and Nail - If Tinker is banned why isn't this card?
    * Sensei's Divining Top / Scroll Rack - Never before has there been cards that encourage slow-play as much as these where it's literally gone against the spirit of the format. EDH / Commander is supposed to be about interacting with your playgroup instead of non-interactive turns which does nothing to advance the board state let alone the game in general.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-15 3:05 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Jeez, some of those are not like the others.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-16 2:56 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
Isn't the whole point of EDH / Commander supposed to revolve around everyone not running the exact same cards in their 99? Not to mention the prevalence of tutors in the format makes it far too easy to get staple cards out when you want them instead of relying solely on the luck of the draw after thinning your deck out. I figured If the above cards I listed ends up getting banned then that would encourage more players to think outside the box a bit more instead of relying too much on consistency when building EDH decks. Basically running "playsets" of cards with different names that function identically.

Not saying that consistency is a bad thing however too much consistency can lead to more power creep and other players trying to netdeck off each other. Whenever a popular EDH deck tech shows up on YouTube, that ends up destroying the Secondary Market for those who are wanting to build the deck for themselves. It ends up creating a financial barrier of entry for those who are trying to get into EDH from spending more on Standard and Modern. Now granted there are some cards I listed that don't see as much play due to how much they're going for on the Secondary Market.

Reserve List cards are sort of a blessing in disguise for the format since the more expensive they become the more it pressures players into finding functionally identical alternatives for said cards. Sheldon said it best that, "restriction breeds creativity" and what better way to do that than by narrowing the card pool to where there isn't as much of an unfair disadvantage to those who aren't able to afford Reserve List cards as they continue to spike? Maybe it will help EDH players be more truthful in regards to what cards they decide to proxy that they're actually able to afford.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-16 9:34 pm 
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Card Slinger J wrote:
Isn't the whole point of EDH / Commander supposed to revolve around everyone not running the exact same cards in their 99?


No. The point is to craft environments which work towards the subjective goal of the group having fun. No shade intended, but I think your expectations are too lofty- and thus, you're doomed for disappointment, even if you got everything on your laundry list. Normally, I would respond to this kind of post by asking why Craw Wurm is missing to make this point.

Groups have tried expanded banlists for format variations- those variations don't retain the same type of playerbase.

My own fantasy banlist has only 3 cards. Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith, and Intuition. Banning these 3 cards doesn't effect most tables, but it shakes up how the game is played at tables where it does matter enough to extend the amount of counterplay by a couple of turn cycles. Even then, I've encountered great argumentation against these choices (though, it has mostly been from individuals playing devil's advocate about the dangers of making the EDH banlist larger.)

A few other things...

Tooth and Nail is closer to Reshape or Whir of Invention than Tinker.

The only problem with Top and Scroll Rack are a lack of supply, imo it's an affront that they haven't been stuffed into Commander precons, especially as the MSRP rises.

Clock of Omens and Mind Over Matter would like a word with you about Paradox Engine's place as an enabler.

Brago, King Eternal sounds like the crux of your post- since almost every card you've mentioned fits into a Brago deck. If your group is getting manhandled by a Brago deck, the counterplay does exist (similar to Mizzix of the Izmagus and Meren of Clan Nel Toth)- and that's just to utilize EDH's insanely deep removal pool. If your own path to victory is as clear your opponent's (using Brago to reset rocks/value engines,) then being able to keep up and take it down isn't all that tall of an order.

Again, just to be clear- I'm trying to be very forward and blunt here; but that's because this horse has bred, fed, beaten, eaten and mourned over several generations (thanks, Sacred Mesa.) "Fair Magic" is played by busting up combos on their way down. That window only exists if a player makes commitments for pressure or bottlenecks which allow high value plays to overtake synergistic card combinations, or extremely high power individual card setups. The banlist could be 200+ cards deep, and that simply wouldn't change.

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-16 10:34 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
Card Slinger J wrote:
Here's a list of cards that should be added to the Commander Banlist:

1. Sol Ring / Mana Crypt - A two-turn mana advantage early in the game is often a blow in which opponents aren't able to recover from that's almost on par with Black Lotus in terms of power level as it was a main ingredient for many of MTG's original first-turn-kill decks at the time.
2. Mana Drain - Similar to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, the amount of mana you get from countering a high CMC card can be too much for most opponents to handle especially If their General is within a color identity that lacks consistent ramp support.
3. Serra Ascendant - The problem with this card is that your starting life total makes this way too easy to trigger by enabling you a 6/6 flier with lifelink that's already strong enough to kill early blockers.
4. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Sure you suffer the same penalty but in EDH decks with just the General as your only creature, you're depleting your opponents of all their resources by having them choose between creatures or mana.
5. Cyclonic Rift - The problem with this card is it's amazing versatility, offering either an early removal or a late-game mass nuke. Sure it takes seven mana to leave your side of the field unscathed but much like with Expropriate it can automatically win the game for you the turn you hard cast it.
6. Demonic Tutor / Mystical Tutor - While tutors are generally required for certain EDH decks to function properly they're often times used to combo out for a win by stealing a resource lead even If luck doesn't favor your opening hand.
7. Gaea's Cradle - It produces twice as much mana as a regular land could produce and once you've accumulated enough mana to cast your fatties, you'll be too far ahead for your opponents to catch up with you.
8. High Tide - For mono-blue builds it's an absurd amount of resources with no real drawbacks.
9. Skullclamp - Creates way too much card advantage for what it does. There's a reason why this card was banned in the original Mirrodin block back when it was Standard legal. I should know since I was around when Elf Clamp was a thing.
10. Iona, Shield of Emeria - Helm of the Host's printing has proved that she's way too powerful in this format when you consider that you can easily lock someone or multiple players out of the game all at once.

Honorable mentions:

    * Mana Vault - Still a lethal way to nab 3 extra mana early game which is fairly easy to get around the drawback with Blood Clock and Umbilicus. Not to mention It's highly unlikely that someone will have an answer to this early in the game unless it's in their opening hand.
    * Brago, King Eternal - Sure 4 CMC isn't super cheap but use a Sol Ring, Ancient Tomb, or Mana Vault and you're basically there. The fact that he scores a free untap with your mana rocks leaving with a super powered arsenal of high CMC spells on turn 4 or 5 is nothing to scoff at.
    * Paradox Engine - At least Brago can only inflict combat damage once per turn, but with the Engine it can re-activate itself as long as you have the mana rocks to keep casting spells. If Paradox Engine only triggered once per turn then it wouldn't be nearly as bad as Prophet of Kruphix was before it got banned.
    * Tooth and Nail - If Tinker is banned why isn't this card?
    * Sensei's Divining Top / Scroll Rack - Never before has there been cards that encourage slow-play as much as these where it's literally gone against the spirit of the format. EDH / Commander is supposed to be about interacting with your playgroup instead of non-interactive turns which does nothing to advance the board state let alone the game in general.

1. Early fast mana earns the ire of the rest of the table. Every time I've had an explosive start, the table low mana interaction all comes my way. I now slow roll my ramp to avoid this.

2. Have you ever played with/against mana drain? Its fine. It's just a swingy counterspell.

3. See number 1.

4. That might have been true at some point, but there's enough interaction and spot removal to make this a non-issue, even in colorless decks.

5. Cyclonic Rift is obnoxious, but not broken. If you're that concerned about the card, prevent your opponents from casting spells on your turn, or force them to use it early. Your argument about it's late game uses in invalitdated by cards like Insurrection, which can simply end the game.

6. Demonic tutor and tutors are obnoxious, but not broken. It being two mana is mitigated by it's the only card that does so without restrictions.

7. Cradle? Really? Is there a reason no one is playing mass removal or spot removal for the Cradle itself?

8. High Tide is only played in combo decks. Next.

9. Skullclamp is fine. Play more spot removal, or prevent the shenanigans by limiting the creatures that the player gets to use.

10. Inona is obnoxious, but she holds a target on your head the size of Nebraska.

Mana Vault is fine. See my rebuttal to Sol Ring.

Arcum Dagsson and Zur the Enchanter would like to show you what degeneracy looks like.

Paradox Engine is fine. It's a combo piece, did you expect it to be fair?

Tooth and Nail is 9 mana entwined to Tinker's 3. That's why one is banned and the other isn't.

Sensei's Divining Top is obnoxious, but "slow play" bannings aren't a thing.

Honestly, a lot of your problem cards sound like they can be solved by building decks with more interaction. The rest can be solved by talking to your group.

EDH doesn't do bannings based on power.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-23 4:41 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
I do feel as though there's a big misconception with the way players (especially in my playgroups) perceive the EDH Rules Committee's handling of the official ban list when they tend to view problem cards based on overall power creep instead of non-interactivity which is partially the basis for degenerate combo decks in general. It can be rather difficult to make that distinction between the two which is why when players complain about specific cards that are a problem or a threat in their playgroup they're mainly referring to cards that over half the time don't see play in their circles or they do despite not running enough answers for them.

Often times it seems like when someone at the table manages to combo out for a win or casts a board wipe either everyone else at the table is all tapped out on mana from being able to respond to it, heavily relies on Rattlesnake cards, or counts on the blue player to cast a "free" counterspell with Foil, Pact of Negation, or Force of Will to help give disadvantaged players a chance to make a comeback while prolonging the game even further. If they're complaining about sitting around for 2-3+ hours playing EDH / Commander then maybe their time is better spent elsewhere don't you think?

They're the one's who've invested in the format and paid for all their cards unless they borrowed a deck from someone so there's really no excuse for them to complain. I think it really all boils down to players expecting a shortcut to games that end fast in EDH / Commander instead of being locked into a board state that's unfun for them. They're stuck in the competitive player mindset of playing an Aggro / Tempo deck that usually lasts for 15 to 20 minutes instead of hours on end. It's very difficult to run enough answers to problem cards in EDH / Commander when we seem to be too focused on building our decks to be as consistent as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-24 1:24 am 
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Card Slinger J wrote:
It's very difficult to run enough answers to problem cards in EDH / Commander when we seem to be too focused on building our decks to be as consistent as possible.


First, before addressing the snipped bit- I've been there, I'd wager most of the other posters have been there. EDH is more or less about Magic as an experience, and that usually involves doing lots of "big dumb stuff." This is more or less about something that is subjectively speaking, very liberating to build and play with- and comes with an understanding that EDH doesn't experience power creep in any usual way. Cards like Flash, Sneak Attack, Hymn to Tourach etc. don't exactly come off the presses like they used to. So, when something splashy like Smothering Tithe comes out, it's usefulness is exaggerated. Most "EDH Cards" are powerful only inside of the context the entire deck provides.

Rather, where EDH is concerned, it may help to take a breather and observe how massive and absurd this whole thing is. Even with excessive tutors, old power etc, the games don't play particularly well to any goldfishing script because of every single factor involved in making the format's core ruleset. 40 life, 99 card singleton, 1 commander (Legendary Creatures aren't exactly a powerful card type to begin with-), 3-4 players (makes getting combos off that much harder.) It's simply as close to "anything goes" as Magic can get while maintaining a (mostly) strategic form. It's particularly difficult to assemble a truly competitive EDH deck, exceptionally difficult to pilot one of those decks; and the outcomes are only decided there if your game is a complete mismatch (because the decks that goldfish particularly well don't bounce back into a game once they've committed and failed.)

Back to the snipped quote- there are 2 gargantuan rings of fire at play in my experience.
1. Commander is particularly punishing if a player becomes too eager to drop their disruption. I recently had a game where an opponent was playing Selvala, Heart of the Wild, another was playing Zur, the Enchanter, and I was playing Ephara, God of the Polis. The Selvala player cast Weird Harvest for 3, with his Selvala, Llanowar Elves, and Beastcaller Savant on board, searching up Wirewood Symbiote, Rhonas, the Indominable, and Elvish Mystic. The Zur player got a Necropotence, and used it for 10- and when my turn came around, I cast Hour of Revelation to keep the Selvala player off infinite mana. The Zur player, elected to Swan Song my spell, and so we both took infinite Rhonas pumps to the face. I giggled like an idiot for a couple hours about what an insanely awful play that was- but the pilot of the Zur deck was particularly scared of me at the table and didn't get the hot read on what our Elvish friend was doing with Weird Harvest.

Normally, we only tend to consider how punishing it is when we burn out own removal on the wrong things- but this sort of situation is a constant factor. My entire position in the game hinged on fighting through a 10 card Necropotence while the Selvala deck would be multiple turns behind. That's fairly reasonable, but I didn't account for my opponents making errors. I normally don't go for powered games, but this was a pickup pod for a larger local group.

2. Diversifying disruption is key. Everyone sortof finds their own groove with card numbers- but there's a need to condense slots with modal spells (a'la Primal Command-) and tools which overlap with strict removal as a bonus (a'la Reclamation Sage.) IMO, this is one of the coolest features of EDH- the cardpool is DENSE; the amount of stuff that plays particularly stong roles in their commander niche is kindof astounding (like my pet card, Conch Horn.) There's a sortof critical mass between card selection and efficient removal which makes it fairly reliable to have a position based win condition. Granted, this isn't held up by the popularity contests on aggregates like EDHrec- because concept decks on TappedOut are notoriously light on tools like removal (and things like Ghostly Prison, Winter Orb, Vedalken Orreryand Seedborn Muse are over-valued and solid disruption is cut to fit more of them inside of these concept decks.)

In summary- Commander involves a bunch of trial and error (obviously;) but the way it's laid out in the previous post gives me the impression that you might be taking that in as a bummer. Instead, I would ask that you allow yourself to make many spectacular mistakes in this realm ("fail forward", as it were.) If you can manage to capture the sort of enthusiasm in your earlier post inside of that experience, then your playgroup will hopefully find a way to embrace that too; (or you can just punish them senseless for making themselves predictable as a consolation prize.)

Sorry for the novella,
-A Blathering Idiot

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-29 7:41 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
As for being too eager to drop disruption, the odds of having an answer in hand with mana open to stop someone from being able to combo out for a win is very slim when there's not enough "free spells" outside of blue that can deal with those kind of situations. There's underplayed spells such as Abolish which can deal with artifacts and enchantments simply by pitching a Plains or even Reverent Mantra which guarantees protection from a specific color by pitching a white card. Maybe If we had more instant speed "pitch" spells to choose from for various colors dealing with particular problems on board then that could ease situations quite a bit.

As far as diversifying disruption goes, perhaps there's not enough powerful modular spells in the format that are really worth running aside from Charm cycles which are viewed to be too situational to see any real play with Boros Charm and Rakdos Charm seeing the most amount of play as far as two color combinations go. Simic Charm deserves an honorable mention while the rest aren't nearly powerful enough to warrant play which is unfortunate but you have to remember that these Charms were first designed before EDH / Commander was even conceived as an official format in MTG.

The Command cycle from Lorwyn was a step in the right direction where as the Confluence cycle almost felt under powered in comparison. A lot of modular spells since then feel like their abilities have been watered down too much to the point where they're simply not good enough to see play at EDH / Commander tables. I'm guessing R&D's too worried about designing modular spells that are on the same power level as the Command cycle from Lorwyn. Modular creatures such as Vindictive Lich and Knight of Autumn seem like a step in the right direction that didn't go far enough I'm afraid.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-29 9:08 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
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Location: Orlando, Florida
Card Slinger J wrote:
As far as diversifying disruption goes, perhaps there's not enough powerful modular spells in the format that are really worth running aside from Charm cycles which are viewed to be too situational to see any real play with Boros Charm and Rakdos Charm seeing the most amount of play as far as two color combinations go. Simic Charm deserves an honorable mention while the rest aren't nearly powerful enough to warrant play which is unfortunate but you have to remember that these Charms were first designed before EDH / Commander was even conceived as an official format in MTG.

The RTR set came out two years after Wizards started producing commander product, so not sure what your point is here.

Card Slinger J wrote:
The Command cycle from Lorwyn was a step in the right direction where as the Confluence cycle almost felt under powered in comparison. A lot of modular spells since then feel like their abilities have been watered down too much to the point where they're simply not good enough to see play at EDH / Commander tables.

The command cycle varies wildly in power, and were printed years before Wizards started officially supporting the format. The only ones that see a lot of play are Primal and Austere, and the others hardly see any play at all, so saying it's a power issue isn't exactly true. The main issue I see with Confluences is people getting their hands on the cards to begin with. I own 1 black Confluence, and I play it in my flashback deck (I was taking a break from magic during 2014-2015). I would play the rest sans the white one if they were more available (before you ask, I don't like buying cards online. I've been burned badly on that before).

Card Slinger J wrote:
I'm guessing R&D's too worried about designing modular spells that are on the same power level as the Command cycle from Lorwyn. Modular creatures such as Vindictive Lich and Knight of Autumn seem like a step in the right direction that didn't go far enough I'm afraid.

Vindictive Lich and the Knight have great abilities, what would you do to make them more "playable?"


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-06 1:48 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Card Slinger J wrote:
As for being too eager to drop disruption, the odds of having an answer in hand with mana open to stop someone from being able to combo out for a win is very slim when there's not enough "free spells" outside of blue that can deal with those kind of situations. There's underplayed spells such as Abolish which can deal with artifacts and enchantments simply by pitching a Plains or even Reverent Mantra which guarantees protection from a specific color by pitching a white card. Maybe If we had more instant speed "pitch" spells to choose from for various colors dealing with particular problems on board then that could ease situations quite a bit.

Now I dont know you so I dont know what you do and dont play, but just to cover all the bases, if you haven't done it before, you should build a combo deck and play it for a while.

Most people that "hate combo" really dont understand how difficult it is to play and set up. When I play a combo deck I am doing things that make you want to tap out, I'm making plays that encourage you to answer them so that you're out of answers later and I am constantly planning ahead.

There are signs that a player is working towards a combo and you and your playgroup need to be able recognize and respond to them. It's not just about having answers at the right time, it is about throwing them off balance. If a player tutors but doesn't make a significant play to affect the board, be suspicious, attack them and encourage people to attach them. Most combo players know not to play enablers too early, but if you see a blasting station or ashnod's altar in play, you need to hit that person.

You're right, if you just wait for them to combo out, you probably wont have open mana or an answer ready. So instead look out for the signs of combo decks, and make them try to play their combo on your timeframe rather than theirs. Back them into a corner and make then pull the trigger when you have the answer ready.

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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-14 1:36 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
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specter404 wrote:
Most people that "hate combo" really dont understand how difficult it is to play and set up. When I play a combo deck I am doing things that make you want to tap out, I'm making plays that encourage you to answer them so that you're out of answers later and I am constantly planning ahead.


You are absolute right, and it works not only for combos but for things such as Aproach of the second sun, felidar sovereign ,test of endurance and a long instant wincons because people often only see the outcome and not what drove you there.

I rember a game where I was playing my Oloro deck, it was at a 5 man pod, in some point of the game I was at less than 20 life and no one have died.

I had in my hand approach of the second sun and mystical tutor, so my plan was to cast it, and at EOT tutor the approach and cast it again.

The problem was I just have no extra mana for protection, so I used 7 of my 8 manas to cast it, them every single player took a turn and all attacked me, I was forced to path to exilea creature swinging me for lethal so I hadnt got the mana for the tutor, then It was my tirn, I was very low on life and 2 of the 4 opponents were in blue, the turn went off, I got attacked and survived, then the last player atackd me for lethal and I chumpblock with a flash flyer, (he got tapped out) and I got to resolve the tutor, so I was able to hardcast approach in my next turn and win.

For 2 of my opponents the victory was "cheap", but to get there I was not only work the things I said, I was also work my way to survve in that 5 man table where 2 of them played heavy agro decks and other 2 played midrange, ir was a very hard wel erned victory but some people only sees the outcome the "I WIN" card and just forgets about what did you do to get there (btw the game ended at turn 10-12+)

_________________
Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 6:24 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Would just like to throw my 2 cents at considering a ban of Paradox Engine.
It's been degenerate and one-sided prior to today, but the new Urza creature...makes it really, really silly:
"Tap my mana rocks for UUUUU, play something small, untap my rocks with Paradox Engine, tap them again fro more UUUUUU, use Urza's ability, untap my rocks, etc."

Commander is reaching some sort of breaking point where either Paradox Engine needs to go, or one or two of the fast mana rocks will need to go. Oh, add Mycosinth Lattice as well, since it essentially ends the game under Karn, the Great Creator.

Maybe something can be done to increase interactivity and curtail all these abusive strategies?
"Play blue" isn't something we all want to do.

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 6:35 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm not sure it needs banning. Off the top of my head, how does this compare to Teferi + Knowledge Pool? Both can negatively end the game. At least with Paradox Engine & Urza, you can hit a land and that wouldn't trigger the Paradox Engine (I know, other spells in hand help you get past that -- but Teferi Pool doesn't have that possible situation hit.)

I'm sure some people will play the Urza's Engine combo -- but then I think most will give it up for something more fun/interesting.


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