Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Oct-18 4:19 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2265 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 3:59 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
On a related note, I second the notion to get the stupid Lattice out of the format. On paper, it seems like a cool and interesting way to shake up the board state, like Possibility Storm or Bedlam. In practice, I've yet to see it do anything other than be followed by one of the dozens of cards that sets every opponent back to the stone age. I think it is a broken card, not really in the sense of it being overpowered, but more of just a badly designed piece of garbage that doesn't work. It looks like it's supposed to be a Johnny card with some minor Timmy implications, but it is nothing but a particularly cruel Spike tool.

That being said, I don't think Karn's presence in the format makes it any worse. There was already Vandalblast, Consulate Crackdown, Stony Silence, Darksteel Forge + sweeper, and plenty of other ways to use Lattice to ruin the game for everyone else.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 1:49 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
I also would not miss Myco Lattice or Paradox Engine. Of the two of them, I agree with Uktabi_Kong that Lattice is the more likely to accidentally ruin a game, so I would consider it more important to ban than Engine. If you play Paradox Engine, your intention is probably degenerate, and banning it just means you move on to the next most degenerate thing.

I don't know how much this matters, but it seems worth mentioning that banning Engine would have a far bigger impact on cEDH than banning Lattice or Bolas' Citadel or Cyclonic Rift or any of the recent cards that have immediately provoked complaints on these forums.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 10:45 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
I can't say I disagree with the idea of removing the Lattice.

It's an easy card to include in a deck because "it makes all of my artifact-matters cards better." Your Thopter Spy Network and Saheeli, the Gifted look a lot nicer when everything is an artifact. Daretti, Scrap Savant can now sack any permanent to Trash for Treasure.

And then Scrap Mastery happens. Or Karn, or Wave of Vitriol, or Null Rod or any other tangential thing that interacts with artifacts causes the game to get all the way wrecked. If your "artifact answer" is Purify or Merciless Eviction, there's no way to remove the Lattice without the collateral damage. I'm not sure that it's still a criteria for banning, but arguments over Griselbrand was that "once he was on the board, the game warped around him." Primeval Titan was the same way. Who can reanimate it, who can clone it, to get the most out of it.

With Lattice, I get the feeling it warps into a "who can abuse it the most, first" situation as well. I can't recall a game where a Mycosynth Lattice hit play that wasn't a "Mycosynth Lattice-centric game."

_________________
Hypercasual and Proud

Current Deck-building Project(s):

Izoni, Thousand Eyed (Elf Tribal-ish)
Building $15-25 "Intro to Commander" Decks for my Local LGS


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 3:13 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Small nitpick, but Primeval Titan's problem was worse: the deckbuilding process itself was based around abusing his ability, even in decks that didn't run him. Every blue deck had about a batrillion clone/steal effects, every black deck was about 10% reanimator, Word of Seizing and Zealous Conscripts were far and away the best red cards, and 3-color non-green decks ran Cabal Coffers. Oh, and every green deck's primary win con was Avenger of Zendikar.

In hindsight, it's really really hard to overestimate how dumb that card's effect on the format was.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-26 8:17 am 

Joined: 2017-Nov-14 2:50 pm
Age: Wyvern
Can someone explain to me the rationale of leaving Mana Crypt unbanned? Sol Ring is widely considered a bit too strong, but is kind of the signature card of the format, much like Brainstorm to Legacy. 95% of the time though, Mana Crypt is better than Sol Ring. 0 cost is problematic enough - a 3-drop on turn 1 can be as brutal as a 4-drop on T2, if not more - but perhaps the bigger issue is it can function essentially as a second copy of Sol Ring. A deck with both will hit turn 1 fast 2-colorless twice as often!

There are many decks that would benefit more from a Mana Crypt than the actual ABUR Moxen! I don't know how it hasn't been on the ban list since the beginning of the format...


Last edited by rpgtiger on 2019-May-26 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-26 8:21 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Mar-18 12:55 pm
Age: Drake
rpgtiger wrote:
Can someone explain to me the rationale of leaving Mana Crypt unbanned? Sol Ring is widely considered a bit too strong, but is kind of the signature card of the format, much like Brainstorm to Legacy. 95% of the time though, Mana Crypt is better than Sol Ring. 0 cost is problematic enough - a 3-drop on turn 1 can be as brutal as a 4-drop on T2, if not more - but perhaps the bigger issue is it can function essentially as a second copy of Sol Ring. A deck with both will hit turn 1 fast 2-colorless twice as often!

There are many decks that would benefit more from a Mana Crypt than the actual ABUR Moxen! I don't know how it hasn't been on the ban list since the beginning of the format...

[ and ], not < and >. Welcome to the forum, though.

_________________
The QFT Section
Sheldon wrote:
The cards didn't just warp the way the games were played, they warped how I was conceiving and perceiving the format. That's the sign of a problem.

Carthain wrote:
The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-26 10:30 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sol Ring is by far worse than Mana Crypt, so if you're in the mindset that one needs to go, it should be sol Ring.

1. Sol Ring costs a few bucks, Mana Crypt is well over a hundred. Quite possibly EVERY Commander player owns at least one copy of SR, whereas MC is a luxury card. So the likelihood of having a game affected by SR are statistically way higher.

2. Mana Crypt has a very real drawback in the types of games that the RC strives for (where games can go at least 10 turns). In those games an early MC should average out to dealing you at least 10 points of damage -a quarter of your life total. It is only in the faster more competitive games where life totals don't matter as much and spending mana on a SR are important .

3. Sol Ring shouldn't be a pet card of the format anymore. Sure, this is one of the 9nly formats where you get to play it, but the same goes for a number of cards. And now that they've been reprinted in all but one cycle of precons, it's not even a unique old card that you pulled out of a shoebox and dusted off.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 12:16 pm 

Joined: 2017-Nov-14 2:50 pm
Age: Wyvern
You are correct in that there is a good argument to be made for banning Sol Ring. However, Sol Ring is the signature card of the whole format, and its ubiquity means that it has no reasonable chance of a banning. Rendering almost every Commander precon ever made illegal would not be a wise move, upsetting many players and possibly drawing the ire of WotC itself, as Sol Rings are likely a motivator of precon sales, plus it would severely complicate future Commander Anthologies. In light of that, Mana Crypt should be banned because it's the only one of the two that would actually be feasible to ban.

Furthermore, rarity is not a reason to leave a card unbanned. You couldn't just unban the rest of the Power 9 because they're rare and few people will encounter them. In fact, I'd argue that rarity is a point in favor of banning it. At least with Sol Ring, you can feel a little better when going up against it because, hey, at least you also have one, and a few games from now you could easily be the one racing out ahead of everyone with your turn 1 Sol Ring. I speak from personal experience when I say that a player with a Mana Crypt can cause far more playgroup troubles than the Ring. It doesn't feel good to see a player do broken things with their Mana Crypt they luckily pulled from EMA knowing that it's an advantage that you simply will never have without putting down nearly $200.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 3:41 pm 

Joined: 2019-May-28 3:13 pm
Age: Wyvern
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Small nitpick, but Primeval Titan's problem was worse: the deckbuilding process itself was based around abusing his ability, even in decks that didn't run him. Every blue deck had about a batrillion clone/steal effects, every black deck was about 10% reanimator, Word of Seizing and Zealous Conscripts were far and away the best red cards, and 3-color non-green decks ran Cabal Coffers. Oh, and every green deck's primary win con was Avenger of Zendikar.

In hindsight, it's really really hard to overestimate how dumb that card's effect on the format was.


I think Prime Time and Sylvan Primordial are perfectly safe in today's Commander environment. Maybe back in 2012 when they were banned they deserved it, but the game has evolved well past the point where they would be as dominant as they once were. Personally, I find it ridiculous that they are still considered too dangerous to unban, especially considering the wide array of answers and strategies that have arisen in the SEVEN years since their banning.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 3:55 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
sicklyjewel wrote:
I think Prime Time and Sylvan Primordial are perfectly safe in today's Commander environment. Maybe back in 2012 when they were banned they deserved it, but the game has evolved well past the point where they would be as dominant as they once were. Personally, I find it ridiculous that they are still considered too dangerous to unban, especially considering the wide array of answers and strategies that have arisen in the SEVEN years since their banning.
You should go back and read why those cards were actually banned, instead of assuming its about dominating games.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 4:04 pm 

Joined: 2019-May-28 3:13 pm
Age: Wyvern
Quote:
You should go back and read why those cards were actually banned, instead of assuming its about dominating games.


Did someone teach you to be this much of a prick? Or were you just born that way?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 4:06 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Mar-18 12:55 pm
Age: Drake
sicklyjewel wrote:
Quote:
You should go back and read why those cards were actually banned, instead of assuming its about dominating games.


Did someone teach you to be this much of a prick? Or were you just born that way?

Dude. Uncalled for. That's a whole damn lot ruder than what MRH said.

_________________
The QFT Section
Sheldon wrote:
The cards didn't just warp the way the games were played, they warped how I was conceiving and perceiving the format. That's the sign of a problem.

Carthain wrote:
The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 4:22 pm 

Joined: 2019-May-28 3:13 pm
Age: Wyvern
Rule 1.


Last edited by Uktabi_Kong on 2019-Jun-02 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Abrasive for no reason


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 4:48 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
And with that, they were never heard from again.

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Ban card X... it wins too many games in my area!"
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 4:54 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Mar-18 12:55 pm
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
And with that, they were never heard from again.

Their loss, not ours. Politeness goes a long way on this board.

_________________
The QFT Section
Sheldon wrote:
The cards didn't just warp the way the games were played, they warped how I was conceiving and perceiving the format. That's the sign of a problem.

Carthain wrote:
The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2265 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dee123 and 29 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: