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 Post subject: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 10:28 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
Ok.. so here is a situation I have come up with... and I think I know how it works, but I would love some clarification for when/ if it happens.

I play Primal Surge. Nobody counters it... so the spell resolves, and then I start revealing cards and putting them into play. If my deck contains nothing but permanents, I can put my whole deck into play...so, here are some questions.

1) When is the first time someone can put something on the stack? Do I have to finish the Primal Surge or when someone sees something they don't like, can they respond to it coming into play with a swords or grip or something?
2) As cards are being put into play, all the ETB effects trigger, now do they effects go on the stack untill I am done with Primal Surge, or do they resolve as they hit as they enter the battlefield, or do I get to choose?
3) When would I have to pay extra ETB costs for cards like Minion Reflector?
4) What choices would I have for clone effects? All the creatures that are in play when Surge is done or only those that were put into play before the clone was put into play?
5) If a Mystic Snake is revealed and put into play, what does the counterspell have the ability to target? Can I wait untill I am done the surge and choose something my opponents have cast, or do I just not get a target?
6) Once the spell has resolved, that is cast and not countered, can the effect be stopped?

Thanks for the responses.... I am just not too sure how this card interacts with the stack... It feels like everything would go on the stack as I am not passing priority because I am still the active player, and I am still "doing" the spell cast... and then when I say "done", then people have a chance to respond to all the stuff that just came into play.

That being said, it gets fuzzy for me because they are all coming into play as a result of one spell, so all the cards would "see" each other ETB, So if I had a Doubling Season put into play, and then a Deranged Hermit, it wouldn't matter what order they came into play, at the end I would still put 8 tokens into play instead of 4.


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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 11:05 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Rasalom wrote:
1) When is the first time someone can put something on the stack? Do I have to finish the Primal Surge or when someone sees something they don't like, can they respond to it coming into play with a swords or grip or something?
While you are in the middle of resolving a spell, nobody can do anything except watch the spell resolve.
Rasalom wrote:
2) As cards are being put into play, all the ETB effects trigger, now do they effects go on the stack untill I am done with Primal Surge, or do they resolve as they hit as they enter the battlefield, or do I get to choose?
Triggers are created immediately after the triggering event (in the middle of resolving the spell in this case). They are not put onto the stack until immediately before players receive priority after the spell finishes resolving. This is also when you choose the order the triggers go onto the stack and any targets or modes for those triggers.
Rasalom wrote:
3) When would I have to pay extra ETB costs for cards like Minion Reflector?
These are triggers, so same as 2.
Rasalom wrote:
4) What choices would I have for clone effects? All the creatures that are in play when Surge is done or only those that were put into play before the clone was put into play?
Only those that were in play before the Clone. Clone has a replacement effect that you need to resolve before you can put it on the battlefield (not a trigger).
Rasalom wrote:
5) If a Mystic Snake is revealed and put into play, what does the counterspell have the ability to target? Can I wait untill I am done the surge and choose something my opponents have cast, or do I just not get a target?
See 2.
Rasalom wrote:
6) Once the spell has resolved, that is cast and not countered, can the effect be stopped?
Once a spell is resolving, it's resolving. See 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 11:10 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Rasalom wrote:
That being said, it gets fuzzy for me because they are all coming into play as a result of one spell, so all the cards would "see" each other ETB, So if I had a Doubling Season put into play, and then a Deranged Hermit, it wouldn't matter what order they came into play, at the end I would still put 8 tokens into play instead of 4.
Also, you have this half-correct.

The order for those two doesn't matter because one is a trigger, which will resolve later.

However, the cards do not enter all at once. They enter in order, one at a time. This is why Clone can pick things that you put into play during prior portions of resolving the spell.

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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 11:24 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
crokaycete wrote:
Triggers are created immediately after the triggering event (in the middle of resolving the spell in this case). They are not put onto the stack until immediately before players receive priority after the spell finishes resolving. This is also when you choose the order the triggers go onto the stack and any targets or modes for those triggers.

In addition to this, state-based actions will be checked before triggered abilities are put onto the stack--which might be relevant if an opponent has Elesh Norn or something like that out.
crokaycete wrote:
Once a spell is resolving, it's resolving. See 1.

If there was a card which literally prevented players from putting permanents onto the battlefield without involving triggered abilities, it could technically stop Primal Surge "in the middle of resolving"; however, I can't think of a card which does it. I just wanted to point out if at any point you can't put a permanent revealed by Primal Surge (such as an Aura without a target) or choose not to put a permanent into play, then Primal Surge finishes resolving.

I had more to say, but crokaycete kinda beat me to the punch with most of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 11:27 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
So the spell has not actually resolved until I have put all the cards I want from my deck into play, or I hit a non permanent card.

crokaycete wrote:
This is also when you choose the order the triggers go onto the stack and any targets or modes for those triggers.

However, the cards do not enter all at once. They enter in order, one at a time. This is why Clone can pick things that you put into play during prior portions of resolving the spell.


So everytime a creature enters the battlefield, if it has an ETB effect, it creates a trigger, but once the spell finishes resolving, I get to choose what order they go onto the stack? They don't go onto the stack in the order they were revealed/ put into play?


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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 11:40 am 
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Rasalom wrote:
So every time a creature enters the battlefield, if it has an ETB effect it creates a trigger, but once the spell finishes resolving, I get to choose what order they go onto the stack? They don't go onto the stack in the order they were revealed/ put into play?

116.2a Triggered abilities can trigger at any time, including while a spell is being cast, an ability is being activated, or a spell or ability is resolving. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.") However, nothing actually happens at the time an ability triggers. Each time a player would receive priority, each ability that has triggered but hasn't yet been put on the stack is put on the stack. See rule 116.5.

116.5. Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event (see rule 704, "State-Based Actions"), then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities"). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so.

603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.

Any triggered abilities you control will be put onto the stack first in any order you decide. Then, in turn order, each other player will put any triggered abilities they control onto the stack in any order they choose (if there is any). This is not determined by the order with which permanents entered the battlefield.

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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 12:08 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
Segrus wrote:
Any triggered abilities you control will be put onto the stack first in any order you decide. Then, in turn order, each other player will put any triggered abilities they control onto the stack in any order they choose (if there is any). This is not determined by the order with which permanents entered the battlefield.


Of course they will resolve FILO, so say I had a Deranged Hermit, Chancellor of the Forge, and say a Purphoros, God of the Forge ETB from the surge (in any order)... I could choose to put Purphoros on the stack, then Chancellor and then Hermit, so when the stack resolves, I would get 4 squirrels tokens, one hermit, 6 goblin tokens, one Chancellor, and do 24 damage to each opponent.

But then if I had Minion Reflector in play due to the surge, I would have to activate that ability (pay 2 mana for each creature I want to copy) to put the ETB effect of the creature on the stack after the Surge resolves (I am done putting stuff onto the battlefield) but before I am stacking triggers, or would I have to pay to add to the stack when I wanted the trigger to go on the stack?

Plus, would I only be able to create a token copy of creatures that entered the battlefield after the reflector due to the same reason that I can only clone creatures that entered the battlefield before the clone did. (the clone hits and only sees the stuff that's already in play, and the reflector can't see the stuff that already entered)


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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 12:09 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Segrus wrote:
If there was a card which literally prevented players from putting permanents onto the battlefield
Worms of the Earth

But that would have to be a pre-existing effect unless you were an actual maniac and put Worms in your Primal Surge deck. I can't think of a static ability involving a choice that would disrupt PS.

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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 12:25 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
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crokaycete wrote:
Segrus wrote:
If there was a card which literally prevented players from putting permanents onto the battlefield
Worms of the Earth

But that would have to be a pre-existing effect unless you were an actual maniac and put Worms in your Primal Surge deck. I can't think of a static ability involving a choice that would disrupt PS.

Interesting. I own a Worms of the Earth, but I'll admit I never really paid any attention to the effect.

As for choice, well in a sense Mindslaver effects can be used to force a player to cast Primal Surge and then choose to stop the effect after a single card gets exiled.

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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 12:26 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Segrus wrote:
If there was a card which literally prevented players from putting permanents onto the battlefield
Worms of the Earth

But that would have to be a pre-existing effect unless you were an actual maniac and put Worms in your Primal Surge deck. I can't think of a static ability involving a choice that would disrupt PS.


Hmmm... funny... to bad they errated it.. otherwise it would be funny to play that, then make it indestructable


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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 12:31 pm 
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Rasalom wrote:
crokaycete wrote:
Segrus wrote:
If there was a card which literally prevented players from putting permanents onto the battlefield
Worms of the Earth

But that would have to be a pre-existing effect unless you were an actual maniac and put Worms in your Primal Surge deck. I can't think of a static ability involving a choice that would disrupt PS.


Hmmm... funny... to bad they errated it.. otherwise it would be funny to play that, then make it indestructable

They didn't errata the effect which prevents lands from entering the battlefield, they just reworded the text of the card to modern standards.

"Players can't play lands.

Lands can't enter the battlefield.

At the beginning of each upkeep, any player may sacrifice two lands or have Worms of the Earth deal 5 damage to him or her. If a player does either, destroy Worms of the Earth."

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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 12:34 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
Segrus wrote:
They didn't errata the effect which prevents lands from entering the battlefield, they just reworded the text of the card to modern standards.

"Players can't play lands.

Lands can't enter the battlefield.

At the beginning of each upkeep, any player may sacrifice two lands or have Worms of the Earth deal 5 damage to him or her. If a player does either, destroy Worms of the Earth."


I was talking about the destory part... now it's a sac.


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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 12:43 pm 
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Location: Midgard
Rasalom wrote:
Segrus wrote:
They didn't errata the effect which prevents lands from entering the battlefield, they just reworded the text of the card to modern standards.

"Players can't play lands.

Lands can't enter the battlefield.

At the beginning of each upkeep, any player may sacrifice two lands or have Worms of the Earth deal 5 damage to him or her. If a player does either, destroy Worms of the Earth."


I was talking about the destory part... now it's a sac.

.......

.......

Gatherer still says "destroy Worms of the Earth," so where are you seeing errata for sacrifice?

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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 1:35 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Rasalom wrote:
But then if I had Minion Reflector in play due to the surge, I would have to activate that ability (pay 2 mana for each creature I want to copy) to put the ETB effect of the creature on the stack after the Surge resolves (I am done putting stuff onto the battlefield) but before I am stacking triggers, or would I have to pay to add to the stack when I wanted the trigger to go on the stack?

Plus, would I only be able to create a token copy of creatures that entered the battlefield after the reflector due to the same reason that I can only clone creatures that entered the battlefield before the clone did. (the clone hits and only sees the stuff that's already in play, and the reflector can't see the stuff that already entered)

Minion Reflector generates its trigger every time it "sees" a nontoken creature enter the battlefield under your control, so it will trigger for everything that Surge puts in after it. When surge is done, those will go on the stack. For each one, you decide whether you want to pay {2} as the trigger resolves. So with the earlier Purphoros, Hermit Druid, Chancellor of the Forge example, let's throw a Minion Reflector and a Merfolk of the Pearl Trident in the mix.

PS hits Purphoros
PS hits Merfolk of the Pearl Trident
PS hits Minion Reflector
PS hits Chancellor of the Forge (p, mr, and chancellor all trigger)
PS hits Hermit Druid (purphoros, druid, and minion reflector all trigger)
Thus endeth the Surging, you stack your triggers (bottom to top, purphx3, chancellor, reflector of chancellor, reflector of druid, druid)

The stack starts resolving:
+4 squirrels, purphoros triggers 4 times
your opponents eat eight
you may pay {2}, if you do the token druid will trigger (as will purphoros)
two to their domes
+4 squirrels (assuming you paid), purphoros triggers 4 times
2+2+2+2=8 once more
you may pay {2}, if you do the token chancellor triggers (and your opponents will be super bummed about Purphoros at this point)
2 more damage
+15 goblins (2 druids, 10 squirrels, 2 chancellor), and a bundle more purphoros triggers
30 more damage in packets of 2
+30 goblins & purphoros triggers
60 more...is anybody out there?
and then 3 triggers from the original Chancellor and Druid and the Merfolk. I bet you forgot about those.


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 Post subject: Re: Put deck into play.. do things...
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-23 8:04 pm 
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crokaycete wrote:
Rasalom wrote:
That being said, it gets fuzzy for me because they are all coming into play as a result of one spell, so all the cards would "see" each other ETB, So if I had a Doubling Season put into play, and then a Deranged Hermit, it wouldn't matter what order they came into play, at the end I would still put 8 tokens into play instead of 4.
Also, you have this half-correct.

The order for those two doesn't matter because one is a trigger, which will resolve later.

However, the cards do not enter all at once. They enter in order, one at a time. This is why Clone can pick things that you put into play during prior portions of resolving the spell.



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Last edited by sniper_ix on 2014-Apr-24 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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