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 Post subject: Countering and detainment in Roon
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 6:32 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 4:23 pm
Age: Drake
In short, are those that useful for Roon? Instant-return flickering seems to be confined to sorceries and instants (Flicker, Momentary Blink, Cloudshift, Acrobatic Maneuver, etc.). Certainly not permanents like Roon himself, or Mistmeadow Witch and Angel of Condemnation. The latter are more oriented towards getting them back at the end of the turn.

The problem is that instant-return flicker is precisely what Mystic Snake and Draining Whelk want. (Although I'm feeling a little uncertain on whether I should bother with countering partly because my chart only has those and Familiar's Ruse for counterspells...) Even with things like Archaeomancer, there's a question of how dependably you could flicker the Snake and Whelk at the wanted times.

Detainment (Azorius Justiciar, Lyev Skyknight) has a lesser form of the same problem. Precluding attack and ability usage works just fine, but the usual come-back-at-end-of-turn deal with Roon means you don't really get repeated usage from blocking preclusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Countering and detainment in Roon
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-06 12:37 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Deadeye Navigator and Eldrazi Displacer both flicker instantly, repeatably. Restoration Angel flickers instantly, and can be paired with Cloudstone Curio to get a second use out of a creature's EtB effect and then return both that creature and Angel to your hand. I'm also a fan of plain old Whitemane Lion in Roon; cast it to dodge removal or return a timing-precise EtB creature (like Draining Whelk) to your hand, then use Roon or some other effect on Lion, returning itself when it comes back. Similarly, Dust Elemental and Stonecloaker are pretty decent if you are looking to make more use out of timing-precise EtB.

As for detain, I think it's OK but probably not the best. It doesn't do you much good politically, while also not being a permanent answer to whatever threat you are detaining.


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 Post subject: Re: Countering and detainment in Roon
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-07 6:34 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Broad question- but it's a complicated answer. The short version being, it isn't generally speaking worth it if your goal is to rely on it. EG- Roon'ing a Lyev Skynight to detain a planeswalker or put the screws to an enchantment for a turn is a strong play. Doing it two turns in a row is significantly less powerful; because in EDH, it's often more powerful to flex a range of things you can do well- more than try to create a loop- since your opponent can simply outplay those. Similar story for our friend Draining Whelk in Roon. I like it better than Mystic Snake- but if you're locking yourself into it, at that point- it isn't even worth playing Roon out. Roon is weakest in playgroups where an opponent gets to dictate how you're spending your mana and then adjust accordingly, if you can not create a number of twitch fibers. You can't rely too heavily on any single element of what the blink can do- going too deep on one use can punt games outright.

For a similar situation- see what happens when people dunk Meren just to recur Steve a whole bunch, but don't have something else like dredge in play with 1-2 drops to make the engine turn with more than one choice.

Hope that- uh, sortof helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Countering and detainment in Roon
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-08 2:44 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Besides Deadeye and Displacer, Ghostly Flicker's the next best card for setting up repeated Mystic Snake countering... pair it with a Eternal Witness or Archaeomancer or whatever and go nuts.

Most of the detain cards are really bad, but Lavinia of the Tenth is pretty good (she locks down mana rocks, among other things).

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 Post subject: Re: Countering and detainment in Roon
AgePosted: 2018-Nov-11 12:49 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 4:23 pm
Age: Drake
I'll admit that my main concern was disruption of enemy strategy, without necessarily going into permanent destruction. (Not to mention, wasn't detainment well received by players? 3 on the Storm Scale, I think?) In addition, I'd like Roon to have a strategy beyond mere value, and my fondness for Mystic Snake aimed me in the "disrupt enemy strategies while you whittle them down" direction.

That said, looking at my current Roon chart, I'm wondering how well I'd actually enjoy playing the thing. I'm getting irritated about how I can't seem to decide whether I should cohere to Roon, Shu Yun, Jenara, or Yasova (the usual problem of not playing yet because of transportation problems, but wanting to get things squared away in advance so I don't waste money on anything). I'll put up another post regarding the situation.


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