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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-26 12:23 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-19 6:32 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
intreped wrote:
soft no Gruesome Encore - this one is borderline, I'm going to leave it out unless anyone argues strongly for it


This is a tough call because it's such a slippery slope. You could argue that because Puppeteer Clique made the list, surely Encore must be good enough. And if we're adding Encore, why not Animate Dead and Reanimate as well? Probably best to leave it at the Clique, it's the most likely card you'll use if you need the effect.

That said, one card I definitely think deserves a spot on the list is Necromancy. While its power and versatility mean it rarely needs to be used for graveyard hate, I'm always open to the idea of using it on something less than optimal (say, a Hagra Diabolist in response to the Ally player's Living Death) to foil someone else's plans.

intreped wrote:
soft no Steamclaw - I don't like the thought of paying 3 mana per card AND being unable to remove multiple cards per turn, and it has no additional utility outside of GY hate. That said, I can imagine it being playable if you're monored and need as many solutions as you can get. Any input (positive or negative) from anybody else?


This card is very, very bad. If I deemed Relic, Crypt, Claws, and Furnace (and possibly Salvaging Station) to not be enough graveyard hate in mono-red, I would sooner play Lightning Bolt to try and kill the player pulling the graveyard shenanigans than resort to Steamclaw.

intreped wrote:
soft no dwell on the past - it's sorcery-speed, and unlike Gaea's Blessing it doesn't draw a card.


I agree that it's not good enough, but like happened with Necromancy up there, this card reminded me of another card that may be worth adding: Noxious Revival. Its usefulness as graveyard hate is somewhat marginal and questionable, especially against cards like Eternal Witness, but again its versatility makes it playable in a wide variety of decks, and it can at least hinder some reanimation or combo plays (see the Hagra Diabolist example, I've head scary things about that card). And, uh, worst case, you can Reclaim a better hate card with it.


EDIT: Also, about Eater of the Dead since it's already on the list. You can get value out of it faster if, while it's tapped, you activate the ability as many times as you want, then sacrifice or otherwise remove the Eater before any of the activations resolve. When they do, the game will use last-known information to determine if the Eater was tapped, and the answer will always be "yes." I've used this in one of my decks to exile everyone else's dudes before a mass reanimation effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-26 3:21 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Oops, somehow in my last update I forgot to add Morningtide and Skullsnatcher. Adding them along with Necromancy and Noxious Revival now.
Filth wrote:
Also, about Eater of the Dead since it's already on the list. You can get value out of it faster if, while it's tapped, you activate the ability as many times as you want, then sacrifice or otherwise remove the Eater before any of the activations resolve. When they do, the game will use last-known information to determine if the Eater was tapped, and the answer will always be "yes." I've used this in one of my decks to exile everyone else's dudes before a mass reanimation effect.

This is genius.


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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-27 2:11 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
Oops, somehow in my last update I forgot to add Morningtide and Skullsnatcher. Adding them along with Necromancy and Noxious Revival now.
Filth wrote:
Also, about Eater of the Dead since it's already on the list. You can get value out of it faster if, while it's tapped, you activate the ability as many times as you want, then sacrifice or otherwise remove the Eater before any of the activations resolve. When they do, the game will use last-known information to determine if the Eater was tapped, and the answer will always be "yes." I've used this in one of my decks to exile everyone else's dudes before a mass reanimation effect.

This is genius.



I've also seen RB abuse Eater of the Dead with Arcane Teachings. GY Hate Machine Gun style (with pings).

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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-27 4:27 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It would definitely be fun to put Dual Casting on him.

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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-27 6:14 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Treamayne wrote:
intreped wrote:
Oops, somehow in my last update I forgot to add Morningtide and Skullsnatcher. Adding them along with Necromancy and Noxious Revival now.
Filth wrote:
Also, about Eater of the Dead since it's already on the list. You can get value out of it faster if, while it's tapped, you activate the ability as many times as you want, then sacrifice or otherwise remove the Eater before any of the activations resolve. When they do, the game will use last-known information to determine if the Eater was tapped, and the answer will always be "yes." I've used this in one of my decks to exile everyone else's dudes before a mass reanimation effect.

This is genius.



I've also seen RB abuse Eater of the Dead with Arcane Teachings. GY Hate Machine Gun style (with pings).


Paradise mantle, Hair-Strung Koto and viridian Longbow, and the less awesome wolfhunter's quiver, Hankyu, or Heavy Arbalest, let you do this in any color.


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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-27 6:41 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-13 6:01 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Washington D.C.
Shoe wrote:
Paradise mantle, Hair-Strung Koto and viridian Longbow, and the less awesome wolfhunter's quiver, Hankyu, or Heavy Arbalest, let you do this in any color.

Still needs to be black to run Eater of the Dead. I like the Paradise Mantle idea. Generating mana while exiling threats is pretty good. The funniest application would be "tap, exile 5 threats, I have 5 black mana now. Living Death"

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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-27 7:07 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Superstrength79 wrote:
Shoe wrote:
Paradise mantle, Hair-Strung Koto and viridian Longbow, and the less awesome wolfhunter's quiver, Hankyu, or Heavy Arbalest, let you do this in any color.

Still needs to be black to run Eater of the Dead. I like the Paradise Mantle idea. Generating mana while exiling threats is pretty good. The funniest application would be "tap, exile 5 threats, I have 5 black mana now. Living Death"



yeah...Hair strung koto is also fun against creature heavy decks because it can create mill wins out of nowhere. not to mention if you hit a non-creature just exile something from a different gy and keep going :P....been there, built that :P


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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-27 7:28 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-13 6:01 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Washington D.C.
I was looking for the thread with Eater of the Dead, to recommend the Hair-Strung Koto, then realized I was already in it...

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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-27 12:10 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I want to run Eater of the Dead with Elemental Mastery now. Of course, I want to run everything with Elemental Mastery. (See also: Black Carriage.)

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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-29 1:58 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carrion Wurm I've used. And gravestorm. Even Entrails Feaster.

It depends on heavy your meta is on Graveyard recursion.

Another point, that needs to raised in the excellent article, is that Tormod's crypt and the other Artifact-based GH are all vulnerable to null rod, which is a common (or easy) addition to stifle non-colour GH.


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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-30 7:36 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
green slime wrote:
Carrion Wurm I've used. And gravestorm. Even Entrails Feaster.

It depends on heavy your meta is on Graveyard recursion.

Another point, that needs to raised in the excellent article, is that Tormod's crypt and the other Artifact-based GH are all vulnerable to null rod, which is a common (or easy) addition to stifle non-colour GH.


I find Mirror goelm to be quite good since he is non-black and has an ETB graveyard removal. he also becomes a pretty decent creature. if you exile a creature card he is non-flying Commander Esha and if its an instant or sorcery he is hard to spot remove.


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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-30 8:11 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-13 6:01 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Washington D.C.
Shoe wrote:
green slime wrote:
Carrion Wurm I've used. And gravestorm. Even Entrails Feaster.

It depends on heavy your meta is on Graveyard recursion.

Another point, that needs to raised in the excellent article, is that Tormod's crypt and the other Artifact-based GH are all vulnerable to null rod, which is a common (or easy) addition to stifle non-colour GH.


I find Mirror goelm to be quite good since he is non-black and has an ETB graveyard removal. he also becomes a pretty decent creature. if you exile a creature card he is non-flying Commander Esha and if its an instant or sorcery he is hard to spot remove.

I ran Mirror Golem in my Kiki-Jiki deck until I realized I couldn't exile a creature with him and still be able to copy (well, not the first time anyways). I agree that he is a nice card. Probably works best in an Animar deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-13 11:20 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Vessel of Endless Rest seems like a good add. It grave hates in any color AND mana ramps.

Also jut a BUMP...this thread is a great resource!

-Shoe


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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-17 4:50 pm 
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Location: Duvall, WA
Merrow Bonegnawer is another one that isnt listed here anywhere


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 Post subject: Re: Cremation Revisited
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-17 5:00 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Shoe wrote:
Merrow Bonegnawer is another one that isnt listed here anywhere

I agree, it's definitely good enough. How would you categorize it? When an opponent is trying to pilfer from somebody else's graveyard, it's often a very good Reaction, because its owner would probably rather exile it than give it to the other player. But most of the time it's an Initiative, sapping cards slowly from whichever graveyard contains threats.


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