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 Post subject: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-12 4:31 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
I love Primeval Titan. I fell for it immediately when it was first spoiled, and listed as my favorite card in my GDS2 submission. There is no card I enjoy casting more in Commander.

However, I think the time has come to bite the bullet and ban Primeval Titan. The card is the very definition of format warping. I've seen too many games come down to which green deck can draw/tutor up their Primeval Titan first. I've seen nongreen decks changing themselves with the express purpose of better stealing, copying, and reanimating their opponent's Primeval Titans.

Prime Time isn't traditionally anti-social or game-endingly broken, it's simply too good. I'd compare it most to Recurring Nightmare - if you could be casting, recurring, or copying a Primeval Titan, it will very rarely be correct to do anything else.

There are those who argue that the proper solution isn't to ban powerful cards, but to run proper answers. I've heard people say that Prime Time is only overpowered because of social pressure against cards like Jokulhaups an Ruination. Frankly, though, I hate the effect mass land destruction has on the game, and would much rather ban Primeval Titan than play against Jokulhaups regularly.

As much as I love him, I think it's time for Primeval Titan to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-12 5:10 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
As much as I love Prime Time, I have to agree.

Look, Primeval Titan,

We've had great times, haven't we? You've fetched me awesome lands, even won me games, but it's time we went our separate ways. It's not you, it's me. You do what you do really well, but I just can't get enough of you and it's not healthy for me. I need the freedom to explore relationships that are more rewarding to me and my friends. I hope we can still be friends.

Sincerely,

Cervid

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Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-12 9:59 pm 

Joined: 2011-Dec-05 6:29 am
Age: Wyvern
I believe that Primeval titan is the 6th most commonly seen card at the EDH table because occasionally there isn't any green at the table.

obsidiandice wrote:
There are those who argue that the proper solution isn't to ban powerful cards, but to run proper answers. I've heard people say that Prime Time is only overpowered because of social pressure against cards like Jokulhaups an Ruination. Frankly, though, I hate the effect mass land destruction has on the game, and would much rather ban Primeval Titan than play against Jokulhaups regularly.


I think that Primeval is even more powerful at a table where mass LD is played because of the insane ramp/land tutoring he provides. He provides a huge advantage to whoever has one and mass LD only brings that advantage more into focus - LD and ramp are two sides of the same coin as they are tools for creating a difference between your manabase and your opponents.


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 5:21 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I disagree. I play in a format where some players have access to Prime Time and others do not. He has been POWERFUL, but no worse than a dozen other mythic-rare bombs printed in the last few years. The folks that don't own Prime Time are not having too much trouble keeping up.

If your experience is diffrent from mine, fine, but I strongly believe that is more indicitave of problem players not problem cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 5:41 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Prime Time is the top of the food chain in the apex strategy, so to speak.
Ramp is (arguable) the best overall archetype in EDH because it allows your to consistently drop your windmills/combos extremely early; it circumvents the most basic built in restriction in Magic, and it does so in what is probably the most powerful way (by allowing you to get non-basics).
That being said, Prime Time himself is not inherently broken, it just enables the hell out of everything.

I personally think it belongs on the list, and I'd be willing to see an even swap with KoKo, but IDK if the RC sees the issue in the same way I do.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 12:36 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
The thing I hate about Primeval Titan is that it becomes stronger with every set that gets printed. We just came off a block that gave us an entire cycle of multicolored utility lands, and the vast majority of them see heavy play in Commander. Even before this megacycle, Primeval Titan was still absurdly powerful in what he could fetch. Getting stuff like Kessig Wolf Run and Alchemist's Refuge is pretty much just overkill at this point.

Wizards is not going to stop printing powerful nonbasic lands. Hell just look at what we have already in RtR: a land that can turn into an 8/8 token with vigilance. Granted, it's not as ridiculous as a ton of other nonbasic lands we already have, but this added redundancy of powerful nonbasic lands that Primeval Titan can go for is starting to really wear on me. It's only going to keep getting worse since there is no such thing as "unprinting" cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 1:36 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Surging Chaos wrote:
The thing I hate about Primeval Titan is that it becomes stronger with every set that gets printed. We just came off a block that gave us an entire cycle of multicolored utility lands, and the vast majority of them see heavy play in Commander. Even before this megacycle, Primeval Titan was still absurdly powerful in what he could fetch. Getting stuff like Kessig Wolf Run and Alchemist's Refuge is pretty much just overkill at this point.

Wizards is not going to stop printing powerful nonbasic lands. Hell just look at what we have already in RtR: a land that can turn into an 8/8 token with vigilance. Granted, it's not as ridiculous as a ton of other nonbasic lands we already have, but this added redundancy of powerful nonbasic lands that Primeval Titan can go for is starting to really wear on me. It's only going to keep getting worse since there is no such thing as "unprinting" cards.


You're not exactly wrong, but... the flip side to your argument is that, the more powerful non-basics exist, the more likely we are to see Prime Time fetching a broader range of stuff.
Instead of just getting Coffers/Urborg or Cradle/Wolf Run 99.9% of the time, every new set that prints good non-Basics will whittle that 99.9% down, broadening his usefulness, making Prime Time less repetative and played out. Sure every deck will run Prime Time, but as long as he's getting a broader variety of lands it'll make him more interesting, not less so.

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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 2:57 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
In an eternal format, everything gets more powerful with every set that comes out. You've got a few hundred more cards to find with Demonic Tutor, and a handful of new equipment to find with Stoneforge Mystic.

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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 3:06 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Why don't people get it....

The very first set of lands you should be fetching with Prime Time are either A:

Deserted Temple + Sac outlet (High Market, Miren, Diamond Valley) or

B:

Deserted Temple + Yavimaya Hollow



durrrrrp.


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 3:08 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Because sometimes you need Bojuka Bog + bounce land?

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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 3:12 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Or Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

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EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 3:26 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-06 1:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: USA
There are two decks that would cry over Primeval Titan's (potential) loss. First my all creature deck, since there's no good "Cultivates" on creatures yet. Second my mono-green landfall deck (yet to be posted) which relies on it's degenerateness. The other all-of-my-decks would just have to deal with it.

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~ Mayael the Anima - Mayael the 5-Power Stompy
~ Marath, Will of the Wild - An EDH Teacher deck (Tribal Beasts)
~ Rhys the Redeemed - Tokens... Why do they keep coming!?
~ Bosh, Iron Golem - Legend of the Iron Giants
~ Damia, Sage of Stone - All Creatures Great & Small


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 4:03 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
TheDoctor wrote:
T since there's no good "Cultivates" on creatures


....
Wood Elves
Farhaven Elf
Fertilid
Knight of the White Orchid
Ondu Giant
Quirion Trailblazer
Solemn Simulacrum
Yavimaya Granger
Silverglade Elemental
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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 4:43 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
thaumaturge wrote:
I disagree. I play in a format where some players have access to Prime Time and others do not. He has been POWERFUL, but no worse than a dozen other mythic-rare bombs printed in the last few years. The folks that don't own Prime Time are not having too much trouble keeping up.

If your experience is diffrent from mine, fine, but I strongly believe that is more indicitave of problem players not problem cards.


Pretty much sums up my thoughts too.

Today, actually, I was dueling with a guy and kickered a Rite of Replication him with Anger in the bin. As he rolled his eyes and began to make a bitch about Prime Time, I pointed out that I wasn't even going to search for lands because 30 damage of trample was hitting his face and I just made it so he couldn't block.


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 Post subject: Re: Breaking up with Primeval Titan
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-13 10:04 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ukkmaster wrote:
Today, actually, I was dueling with a guy and kickered a Rite of Replication him with Anger in the bin. As he rolled his eyes and began to make a bitch about Prime Time, I pointed out that I wasn't even going to search for lands because 30 damage of trample was hitting his face and I just made it so he couldn't block.

But, you used RoR on Prime Time, and EVERYONE does that!


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