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 Post subject: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-May-08 10:51 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
Just wondering if there are enough cards that are pure value to make a theme for a deck.

I'm thinking about cards that do nothing but good stuff with no drawback other than cmc or creatures that have a low cmc but a lot of useful abilities.

Some thoughts:

The Immortal Sun
Primeval Bounty
Mirran Crusader
Vampire Nighthawk
Baneslayer Angel
Cryptic Command
Solemn Simulacrum
Trading Post
Yavimaya Elder

_________________
Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-May-08 2:07 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I am working on a Tyman Thrasios value deck. It is also heavily hatebears because i will be suing it in a competitive meta. But besides the hatebears here is a lot of the random value i thought about. Almost every card here provides card advantage in some way. My list excludes some of these now but mostly it's just a huge tempo. The best removal and swarm them with dudes and just draw 5 cards per turn.

Notion Thief
Anafenza, the Foremost
Scavenging Ooze
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Glen Elendra Archmage
Manglehorn
Trygon Predator
Thada Adel
Brago
Restoration Angel
Vendilion Clique
Zur the Enchanter
Edric, spymaster of trest
Smuggler's Copter
Dark Confidant
Captain Sisay
Recruiter of the Guard
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Grim Haruspex
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Mentor of the Meek
Derevi
Trinket Mage
Yisan[card]
[card]Plaxmanta

Venser, Shaper Savant
Snapcaster Mage
Eternal Witness
Renegade Rallier
Greenwarden of Murasa
Sun Titan
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Teshar
Reveillark
Umezawa's Jitte
Oracle of Mul Daya
The Gitrog Monster
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Tatyova
Phantasmal Image
Sakashima the Impostor
Equilibrium
Aura Shards
Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Birthing Pod

Not every card is here but i was thinking "what if i made a deck that's secretly commandered by Zur, Brago, Thada Adel, Edric, Derevi, Grand Arbiter, Sisay, Yisan, et al". I'm tightening to be competitive playable but i may also keep a lot of the worse off value cards so i can switch it into a casual tempo deck. But i already have a Doomsday Tymnasios deck i am swapping cards with.

Idk. I never claimed i was a great deck designer :)


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-May-08 9:48 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
scatteredsun wrote:
Just wondering if there are enough cards that are pure value to make a theme for a deck.



Well, it would probably depend on what kind of value and what kind of deck. If creature value (e.g. Vampire Nighthawk), then you are dangerously close to weenie aggro (border-sleigh) and even a deck of nothing but <3-4cmc value creatures will not be likely to pull that off in multi-player. If you mean value removal/CA; then you are dangerously close to "goodstuff.dek," of which there are a plentitude. Even mixing the two seems unlikely to stand apart without some other unifying thread.

Have you considered trying to go for an EDH Rainbow Stairwell value-build? Five-color deck looking to find the best "value" at each casting cost in each color.

For those not familiar with Rainbow Stairwell, it is a singleton 60/61-card format where:
- 1 card of each CMC (1-6) in each "color" (WUBRG-C) for 36 cards.
---traditionally, no multi-color or hybrid cards allowed; variants allow Hybrid to slot in either of their color and the "Colorless" 1-6 becomes "Gold" or "Colorless/Gold" depending on what the playgroup wants
- 5 of each basic land for 61 cards
---alternate - 3 of each basic land and 1 10-card cycle of duals, also for 61 cards - or - 4 of each basic and 4 non-basics of choice for 60 cards

In EDH, there are a number of variants that play on the same pattern. The one with the easiest math (that I prefer) being:
WUBRG Commander

56 WUBRG-CG 1 ea CMC 1-8
25 5 of each basic
10 Cycle of Duals
8 Non-basic Lands of choice
---
99

Then it's up to the group on if they want Hybrid to be "gold only" "gold or color" "color only"
Example: would Mercy Killing slot only at Gold 3, only at "White 3 or Green 3" or be allowed at any of those positions. If more than one in the group are doing this experiment (hopefully the entire group) then they would also want to agree on which cycle of duals to use to keep it uniform.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-14 2:49 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
I completely forgot about this thread.

I am absolutely 100% going to do that Rainbow Stairwell EDH deck!! That is an awesome, original idea!!

_________________
Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-14 2:51 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Here's an example, my Horde of Notions Rainbow Stairwell Elementals. We allow hybrid to slot in either color or as gold. Also, "gold" is based on CI, not just casting cost (e.g. Embodiment of Spring). Purists shiver at the thought, but when most of the group is limited in collection size, you have to make allowances.

Basics
Forest x5
Island x5
Mountain x5
Plains x5
Swamp x5

"Dual" cycle
Celestial Colonnade
Shambling Vent
Creeping Tar Pit
Wandering Fumarole
Lavaclaw Reaches
Hissing Quagmire
Raging Ravine
Needle Spires
Stirring Wildwood
Lumbering Falls

8 Lands:
Flamekin Village
Primal Beyond
Command Tower
Opal Palace
Path of Ancestry
Reliquary Tower
Terrain Generator
Thawing Glaciers

Colorless 1-8
Expedition Map
Darksteel Garrison
Crucible of Worlds
Ghirapur Orrery
Prismatic Geoscope
Obelisk of Urd
Scour from Existence
Eldrazi Conscription

White 1-8
Reconnaissance
Hoofprints of the Stag
Terra Eternal
Spitemare
Planar Outburst
True Conviction
Debtors' Knell
Archangel's Light

Blue 1-8
Wind Zendikon
Military Intelligence
Rhystic Study
Master of Waves
Mulldrifter
Aethersnipe
Thundercloud Elemental
Worldpurge

Black 1-8
Foul-Tongue Shriek
Cover of Darkness
Retreat to Hagra
Ashling, the Extinguisher
Patriarch's Bidding
Dread
Hedonist's Trove
Baleful Force

Red 1-8
Flamekin Harbinger
Brighthearth Banneret
Incandescent Soulstoke
Embodiment of Fury
Malignus
Rage Reflection
Hateflayer
Living Inferno

Green 1-8
Burgeoning
Prismatic Omen
Fertilid
Timbermare
Embodiment of Insight
Grave Sifter
Zendikar Resurgent
Liege of the Tangle

Gold 1-8
Embodiment of Spring
Hull Breach
Animar, Soul of Elements
Gruul War Chant
Urban Evolution
Rubblehulk
Omnath, Locus of Rage
Maelstrom Wanderer

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-14 7:03 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
I think that Jodah, Archmage Eternal is where this thread leads. While I dig Trea's Horde Stariwell- I definitely feel like Fist of the Suns decks epitomize this concept by handling an altenrative cost scheme to offset the usual difficulties that come with playing 3 or more colors for access to tools like Omniscience and Praetor's Counsel which usually reward a stricter color identity's manabase with gameflipping power or push spells like Painful Truths into overdrive. I think that, if carefully done- this effect itself is able to platform the highest degree of value-oriented play by serving as the ultimate foundation to work from.

_________________
niheloim wrote:
Wall of Chat. 2U
Creature- Wall

Defender
Wall of chat exceeds at using a lot of words to mischaracterize opposing view points.

Warp Riders (Ephara Solar Flare)


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-15 3:18 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
Hmm...I don't think I'm clever enough for that. To me Jodah looks as though like he wouldn't do much for less than half of your spells. I think I'd rather go with Ramos.

I dig this concept though. I'd allow hybrid in either too.

_________________
Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-26 2:04 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
I'm working on this Rainbow Stairwell EDH deck now. I'm going to use Ramos at the head. I'm thinking I'm going to do 9 of each color and 35 lands. I'm going to use EDHREC and pick the top card for that color and type. I just need a good system for picking type and making sure I have enough creatures.

Here's my current thought. There are 5 supertypes minus Land and Artifact since land has its own slot and Artifact is too closely tied to Colorless. That means I could do two of each type except for Planeswalkers which would only get 1 per Color. I'm going to include cards with Devoid in Colorless so they can get each type as well.

This will mean I'll have a minimum of 15 creatures with the Commander. Not a lot but it may pad out with other cards.

_________________
Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-28 1:13 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
So, if I follow correctly, your schema will be:

25 - 5x basics
10 - land cycle
63 - 1-9x CWUBRGM
---
98
1 commander + ?

Why only 35 lands (especially for a five color deck)?
or will it be an 11 land cycle (where there is a colorless option, like utility or cycling)?

Also, keep in mind that at 9 cmc your choices get quite slim:
Qty by CMC color - Category - Qty by CI
10 - Colorless - 8
6 - White - 5
12 - Blue - 12
9 - Black - 8
11 - Red - 10
9 - Green - 9
4 - Multi - 9 (because Bringers x 5)

Though there are some good choices in that small pool. You could also consider making that last slot "9+" (which would allow the Myojin cycle, since two of them are 10 cmc). If you decide to drift away from using 9 CMC, you could consider going 0-8 CMC, allowing 0 cost items lets you grab an extra (on-color) land or incorporate things like Evermind, Wheel of Fate, and the Pacts.

If you have 9 sots per "color" and you break it out as (at least):
4x creature = 28
1x planeswalker = 7
1x spell (instant/sorcery) = 7
1x enchantment/artifact = 7

that still leaves 2 slots per "color" (1 per color if you separate sorcery and instant) for shoring up weaknesses; adding spells or creatures; etc. That would also solve the "creature short" issue.
Alternately:

2x creature = 14
2x spell (instant/sorcery) = 14
2x enchantment/artifact = 14
1x planeswalker = 7

Also gives 2 sots per "color" for customization while

3x creature = 21
3x spell (instant/sorcery) = 21
2x enchantment/artifact = 14
1x planeswalker = 7

fills up all of the slots, though you can still eek out more creatures with enchantment creatures (in an enchantment slot), artifact creatures and token making spells.

Good luck to you, keep us informed...

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-28 6:13 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
With how Ramos, Dragon Engine works, I think it'll change the version of value from the single card itself to synergistic effects (maybe that's just my interpretation). Hybrid cards and gold cards that add counters seem to be beneficial (Vorel of the Hull Clade).

I'd look at cubes to see how they picked because TBH those are usually stairwelled by CMC and color. If you give a small value benefit for synergy I think you'd have a great deck.

I would cap it at 7+ vs. 9+ because mana will be an issue. Also I'd bump the lands to 40 instead of 35 unless you curve it to be 2, 3, and 4 CMC centric.


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-20 11:36 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Necro...

scatteredsun wrote:
I'm working on this Rainbow Stairwell EDH deck now. I'm going to use Ramos at the head. I'm thinking I'm going to do 9 of each color and 35 lands. I'm going to use EDHREC and pick the top card for that color and type. I just need a good system for picking type and making sure I have enough creatures.

Here's my current thought. There are 5 supertypes minus Land and Artifact since land has its own slot and Artifact is too closely tied to Colorless. That means I could do two of each type except for Planeswalkers which would only get 1 per Color. I'm going to include cards with Devoid in Colorless so they can get each type as well.

This will mean I'll have a minimum of 15 creatures with the Commander. Not a lot but it may pad out with other cards.


Just curious if you ever completed the Stairwell deck and how it turned out.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Valuetown
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-22 12:14 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
I started to put it together right before I moved. Sadly, I don't have a playgroup at the moment. I haven't played magic since last Oct. I'm hoping to be able to be mobile enough to start playing regularly soon. The closest shop does FNM Commander though so I suspect it won't be friendly towards goofy decks like this. I still really want to put it together. I saw that new 5c Captain Sisay and it got me wondering if I could do an all Legendary stairwell with her. I doubt it but it definitely brought my thinking back to this.

_________________
Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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