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 Post subject: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-12 1:04 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Hey folks,

I need some help. I've been sitting on my EDH decks for a few years now (more than that, in some cases) and now that 4 colour Commanders are a thing I'm going to build those decks and also update my others. Trouble is, I'm so far out of touch with what's been released in the last.... six? years that I have no idea where to start.

So, if I'm building these decks, what has been released recently that would fit well into them? I realise that's a pretty broad question. I may have a lot of Sheldon's Set Review articles to (re)read - I read them when they come out, but I don't really pay a lot of attention at the time because I wasn't looking to update my decks....

I need the most help with:
Ravos, Soultender and Tana, the Bloodsower - non-blue creature tokens
Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker and Reyhan, Last of the Abzan - non-red +1/+1 counters
Damia, Sage of Stone - I dunno what this deck does
Colourless deck
5 Colour deck

The first two decks I have pretty much no idea what to do with other than having settled on a theme. In particular for Ravos and Tana, I have a Tolsimir Wolfblood deck which is already G/W tokens and I don't want just another deck that makes a ton of tokens, makes them big, and attacks with them. What do Red and Black add that can take the deck in a different direction? For Damia, it was just creatures with way more power (or ways to grow) so I could empty my hand every turn and have Damia refill it. Then it turned into my Silver bordered deck. Then it was going to be BUG storm, but the storm deck has changed (see next section). Now I just plain don't know what to do with it. For the colourless and 5-colour deck, I don't even know who my Commander will be.

I need help with:
Inalla, Archmage Ritualist - Grixis Wizards/Spells
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Non-white Storm
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - Life gain/loss

Again the first two decks could end up being too similar - having been looking through a bunch of Wizards lately, I'm tempted to drop the "spells" part of Inalla and just make it about the Wizards - but I need a way to win and I'm struggling slightly to come up with a coherent game plan. Oloro is currently the Oloro precon - I want to change it to focus on "stuff you can do when you gain and lose life" but I have no idea what should actually go in such a deck without becoming totally oppressive.

I need a bit of help with:
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - It has my name on it Burn
Savra, Queen of the Golgari - My Graveyard is My Life
Anax and Cymede - Battalion and Heroic
Akiri, Line-Slinger and Silas Renn - artifacts and equipment aggro

Jaya is just a bad deck - it has burn spells, everything with Jaya Ballard flavour text, all the Chandra's I own..... and it's a pile. All the Jaya Ballard cards are staying (yes, even Mystic Compass) but the rest is up for debate. Savra is a slow graveyard focused Golgari-themed deck (it uses both Dredge and Scavenge) with a sacrifice theme. It's fine but it's not very exciting. I tried to make Anax and Cymede an interesting Heroic-focused deck but in the end there aren't that many good Heroic creatures or spells which work well with them - it turned out to be basically your average R/W aggro-runs-out-of-steam-in-the-midgame deck. For Akiri and Silas it's just a case of not know what good equipment has come out lately.

Other decks
So here are my other decks and their themes - are there any outstanding cards since.... well since Theros basically which would be great additions to these sorts of decks?
Kitsune Mystic* Enchantments
Ixidor, Reality Sculptor Morph-o-matic
Lim-Dul the Necromancer Zombie tribal
Omnath, Locus of Mana BIG OMNATH KILLS YOU (Commander damage focused)
Isperia the Inscrutable fliers
Ramses Overdark Auras (Fool's Demise, for example)
Wort, the Raidmother Goblin tribal
Radha, Heir to Keld Elf and/or Warrior tribal with a big mana sub sub theme
Tolsimir Wolfbloodtokens as talked about before. I may morph this to a Ravnica-only deck, maybe?
Ghost Council of Orzhova Blinky blink with some tokens for Ghost Council fodder
Nin, the Pain Artist punishing you for drawing cards, and making you draw cards
Edric, Spymaster of Trest Rogues
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper killing my own things for fun and profit
Mayael the Anima big stompy bois
Rafiq of the Many kills you now (Commander damage)
Zedruu the Greathearted ownership shenanigans
Edgar Markov Vampire Tribal
Animar, Soul of Elements free creatures and big combos
Doran, the Siege Tower I like BIG BUTTS and I cannot lie

*Yes, Kitsune Mystic is not a Legendary Creature - I have Rune-Tail in the deck if anyone objects. Which they have, much to my disgust. Rune-Tail is 5 times as obnoxious as the Mystic

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-12 2:19 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Man, I'd love to offer some help, but this is A LOT to digest and so broad and generic... I will address the first one though;

Viperion wrote:
I don't want just another deck that makes a ton of tokens, makes them big, and attacks with them. What do Red and Black add that can take the deck in a different direction?

I guess the obvious answer here is "sacrifice for profit"?
Goblin Bombardment
Any number of creatures pumped by sac, a la Nantuko Husk
Sadistic Hypnotist

Vicious Shadows
Grave Pact
Creatures that grow when stuff dies, a la Rockslide Elemental

You could even set up a ridiculous engine like
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Ashnod's Altar
Call the Bloodline
Fecundity

Now you pay 1 and pitch a card to make a token, which you sac for 2 and draw a card, but the card you originally discarded went back into your library - infinite death triggers, etb triggers, discard triggers and draw... I'm sure you can win a game with that, just add any card that cares about any of those things happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-12 2:35 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Man, I'd love to offer some help, but this is A LOT to digest and so broad and generic...

Yeah I know, I don't expect any one person to jump on and give me ideas for all 37 decks! What you've said above is great and the sort of thing I'm looking for - if there's an idea that jumps out at someone and it'll fit a deck I have, post it up!

Edit; although Call the Bloodline has a once per turn restriction. The idea is good though :)

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-12 5:19 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Woah, nice! :D Would be happy to help where I can, but to match the broad statment, I'm going to have ask some broad questions- and make some generalized thoughts.

I. Do you want to actually keep all 37 decks?

Probably sounds heartless, but in my EDH experience, reduction is a big part of the enjoyment factor. I currently have three "well developed" decks, two headscratchers, and the loose components for a few ideas sorted out that I'm still working on- of my own; compared to my best friend who has like 16 of his own decks because he likes to obsess over a new idea now and then and jump to it. While, that's simply a difference in preference; I did enjoy helping him develop his own decks (I like to collect fancy boxes, and upgrade or downgrade the decks to "feel just right"- in the same time he'll spend just running the wheels off of a completely new idea.)

Often, I've found though- that in order for him to feel like he has the right space to work with; I'll force him to sacrifice a few decks to the new project, My ideas tend to lead towards more specific strategies- his lean toward "Dude, what can I do with Gisela, Blade of Goldnight?"

II. What inspires the build?

As stated, I like doing specific things, and focusing on how the flavor I'm looking for translates to gameplay. I feel like each build should capture a clear idea as a throughline between the "song of my people" and overlapping systems of Magic's history of mechanics to tell the Tarot-story I want to tell, without sacrificing playability.

Are you a big fan of certain media, or abstract ideas that you want to weave into Magic; or are you just excited to see how certain cards behave together? Knowing what inspires any particular build makes it easier to offer suggestions that are more nuanced or clever than listing off 20 powerful cards with overlapping effects.

III. How do we want to improve these?
Would you like to push these Generals to their logical optimized conclusion within a predetermined type or archetype? Or, would you prefer to look for flavor dunks? Are we trying to maintain specific power levels, or is that so secondary that we're just trying to mash the deckbuilding quarter-circle+punch for those tasty Hadoukens to see what shakes out?

-And most importantly; what makes you feel satisfied with your build? I mentioned my friend, because I respect and love players who build more erratically; but really want to have a goal in mind for hitting the nail. Were I you, I'd strip these down into like 7 decks and make them as different to an antithetical to one another as possible to build my own tiny meta that other people can be comfortable playing.

Could you set a priority list? I think it'd be sweet to flesh out some of these; but upon reading, realized that what I might think are the coolest ideas in the lot could be decks you might feel like parting out anyways. The OP does categorize by degrees of specifics you've established; but it'd really help to also know what you're most excited to sit down and pilot.

For something more specific- for Damia- my instinct would be to go for snake flavor or Psychatog and friends for something dredgy and messy.

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-12 8:55 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
I. Do you want to actually keep all 37 decks?
Ah math error on my part - it's one of every colour combination (5 Mono, 10 Double, 10 Triple, 5 Four colour, 5 Colour and No colour) so 32 all up. But yeah, that's my ultimate goal.
Quote:
II. What inspires the build?
Almost invariably, it's the Commander. I'm very much a Johnny/Timmy with Spike a verrrrry distant third, although I'm a fair to middling player and can play competitively when the need arises. I want to use the Commander's abilities in ways that make sense for that Commander (so I guess I'm more of a Vorthos than a Melvin... or Melvin than Vorthos... I don't know which one is which).
Quote:
III. How do we want to improve these?
Would you like to push these Generals to their logical optimized conclusion within a predetermined type or archetype? Or, would you prefer to look for flavor dunks? Are we trying to maintain specific power levels, or is that so secondary that we're just trying to mash the deckbuilding quarter-circle+punch for those tasty Hadoukens to see what shakes out?
Hard one to answer since everyone has different ideas of power levels - as a general guideline I'd like to go through about half the deck in any given game before it's over. I want to interact with the opponent, their board and their spells on the stack. I don't want to play solitaire - I realise trying to build a Storm deck is dangerously close to that, but I want to make it as interactive as I can.

Quote:
Could you set a priority list? I think it'd be sweet to flesh out some of these; but upon reading, realized that what I might think are the coolest ideas in the lot could be decks you might feel like parting out anyways. The OP does categorize by degrees of specifics you've established; but it'd really help to also know what you're most excited to sit down and pilot.
All of them. No, really. I already have all of them except Damia, four of the Four-colour, and the 5 and 0 colour built (that's 25 decks) and play them all.

As far as a priority list goes, the groups are in the order I listed them in the OP :)
Quote:
For something more specific- for Damia- my instinct would be to go for snake flavor or Psychatog and friends for something dredgy and messy.
Hmmm, there are Naga and Snakes and Gorgons now. I wonder if there's anything mechanical to tie them together?

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-13 2:01 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Hey Viperion. I can very much relate to the 'Out of Touch Old Man' part of your post. I keep up with new releases, but, I started playing with some young twenty-somethings last year, and it was a real eye opener: When I met them, I played my Selenia, Dark Angel life-swap deck, and when I tabled Mirror Universe being protected by Guardian Beast (both of which they had never seen before, had to read, and then had to look up oracle text on), one of them said "You know, they print new cards." I built an entirely modern-printing deck to play with them.

I have to chime in with Mr Degradation: At some point, you have to kill your darlings. Realistically, at what frequency do you play some of these decks? Once a year? I keep my decks to about a half dozen at any time, with two or three in sleeves, but waiting to be dismantled. Different strokes, of course, but, it's worth thinking about.

I feel like this especially echoes with the decks that need the most help: You have a general (or a pair of partners) that you don't really know what to do with, and don't want to go the 'old boring route' that is fairly well explored.

My one piece of deck-specific advice is for Ravos/Tana: my suggestion would be to build around mass tokens + The Great Aurora/Warp World. Those cards are way more exciting when you have a lot more permanents than your opponents.

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-14 8:07 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
No one kills my darlings but me :P

More seriously, they all do get used. I play a deck depending on what I feel like at the time, and most of my playgroup (all 4 of us, but that's another story :'( ) only have one or two decks so when we play they almost invariably pull out one of my decks to play with (we tend to play 3 or 4 games in a session and change decks every game).

I don't play my "competitive"* decks - Omnath, Animar, Rafiq - very often because they're just so much faster and better than the decks the rest of the group has, but I do still pull them out from time to time. I honestly can't think of a deck I haven't played in the last twelve months, and that's including the four tribal decks from last year as well (two of which are staying but being modified (Edgar and Inalla) and two of which are being pulled apart (Cats and Dragons))

In related news, I think I'm going to replace Oloro with Aminatou - that will give me my only Planeswalker-controlled deck and after watching the Commander Versus video, I like the way the deck durdles around.

* Competitive from my point of view. They're not cEDH competitive or anything like it

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-14 12:47 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Viperion wrote:
Edit; although Call the Bloodline has a once per turn restriction. The idea is good though

Fair point. Nonetheless, it's not hard to come up with infinite or near-infinite combos when you involve black or red.

Put Druid's Call on something indestructible, then play Goblin Bombardment and Doubling Season, and have any way whatsoever to hurt it - you likely win.

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-14 1:05 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
That's pretty funny - killing someone by chucking squirrels at their face tickles my fancy :D

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-14 2:08 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
So, I've been meaning to help out here for a while, as this is EXACTLY what I live for in EDH land, but haven't had the time. But I do now, so here goes everything.

*deep breath*

Quote:


Sid's idea of value sacrifice shenanigans is the obvious idea, although I do have another thing in mind. While Ravos and Tana both have their functions as token generators/support, I think they both also synergize really well with voltron strategies. With that in mind, I think you could make the deck "one man army"-Tribal, where you pack the deck with aggressive fatties that also happen to spawn and/or pump tokens, as well as standard voltron cards like equipment and other shenanigans. Some examples of cards I like are Giant Adephage, Mycoloth, Wayfaring Temple, and Verdant Force. If you're willing to bend the theme just a little bit you could also use creatures with effects like token generation such as the numerous Manifest cards or even stuff like Scion of Darkness. Also, not that it isn't my favorite card in the format anyway, but this deck is begging you on its hands and knees to include Psychotic Fury.

Quote:


Honestly, this one is stumping me too. It's really really tempting to say "just run Atraxa instead" and make it like an Experiment Kraj deck but with white and black available. But that's not helpful, so the next best thing I can think of is to base the whole deck around Reyhan's ability and just run a bunch of creatures that are ridiculous to kill off. Indestructible, hexproof, can turn themselves into non-creature permanents, etc. Just try to have your deck do everything it can to outlast the opponent and make sure that every single +1/+1 counter that you get on the battlefield stays there. Of course, when you do that, you don't even have to run that many actual counter-generators.

The other way you could look at this one is to run a bunch of creatures like Mycoloth or Crystaline Crawler that benefit from having lots of counters and then do a bunch of sacrifice shenanigans with Reyhan's ability. So essentially building a deck that looks identical to your standard Ghave list but plays out incredibly differently.

Quote:

Simply put, it's hard to make a good theme for Damia, because she so easily lends herself to generic control or goodstuff. Two rather unique/interesting options for her come to mind. The first is landfall, which is hardly unique to her but can be tons of fun. The much more unique option that unfortunately can get kinda stale if used repeatedly with the same playgroup is to run non-combo Laboratory Maniac, which is like storm but with a different payout in the end.

Quote:
Colorless Deck

Ugh... I hate colorless decks. There are so few options, and most of them are either incredibly overdone, uninteractive, or both. The most interesting thing I can think of would be a Traxox, Scourge of Koog deck that is CA tribal, where every card included in the deck has to have some way to put cards in your hand or field from your deck or graveyard. Past that point, there's not that much.

Quote:
5-color deck

This one on the other hand I don't know where to start, so many options. The first and obvious answer is all of the different tribal variations. Dragons, Slivers, Warriors, Scarecrows, Elementals, Atogs, Allies, and of course (insert creature type here) with Karona. I've also seen Child of Alara God tribal, O-Kagachi, Vengeful Spirit Spirit Tribal, and Ramos, Dragon Engine Gold Tribal, so there's that. Some other options I've seen/used:
Atogatog Barren Glory Combo
Progenitus or Cromat standard control deck with a tiny focus on these guys voltroning out the win.
Jodah, Archmage Eternal: Honestly, I think literally any possible deck type could work with her (him?).

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-15 8:49 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Old? What do you mean, old? I'm fairly sure you are younger than I am, so I take offense with that.

I see what you mean about updating though. I don't have this many decks, but the only deck I'm constantly updating is my darling Glissa. I have a very casual Ramses U/B deck that keeps changing (including new and old cards), and a Naya deck that I'm so unhappy with that it's never finished. Currently it's becoming Najeela, the Blade-Blossom (so, that is five colors). Plus I have five precons I've set out to update to actual decks (but considering that is still a plan instead of a project and these five decks are from the first Commander product it's hardly worth mentioning). Admittedly this is a puny amount of decks, but I don't play a lot to begin with.

Anyway, I gave up on scouring spoilers and preordering cards (that don't end up in decks anyway). What works for me is (re)reading "top cards" articles from my favorite writers. For instance, Abe Sargent writes nice end-of-year-reviews (meaning that, unlike the neverending spam of set reviews, he has spent some time actually playing the cards, which is worth more to me than pure speculation). You can find his 2016 and 2017 articles (as an example) here and here. This inspires me to look at my decks and work these cards in (or at least those I like). The inspiration works as a motivation to actually do something.

Viperion wrote:
Damia, Sage of Stone - I dunno what this deck does


Me neither. Don't you have decklists or threads on your seperate decks? Do something with Deathtouch, or Gorgon tribal (there's a decklist of that around here somewhere).

Viperion wrote:
Savra, Queen of the Golgari - My Graveyard is My Life


I had a Savra deck once. It's Glissa now, but for a large part it's still a Savra deck. Take a look at my deck (in this thread, which reminds me that I haven't posted a new list in years. Scrap trawler is bomb!)

Viperion wrote:
Ramses Overdark Auras (Fool's Demise, for example)


My deck is in this thread. There are some very good new cards for Ramses: Fumble and Dead Man's Chest.

Sinis wrote:
Hey Viperion. I can very much relate to the 'Out of Touch Old Man' part of your post. I keep up with new releases, but, I started playing with some young twenty-somethings last year, and it was a real eye opener: When I met them, I played my Selenia, Dark Angel life-swap deck, and when I tabled Mirror Universe being protected by Guardian Beast (both of which they had never seen before, had to read, and then had to look up oracle text on)


Hilarious.

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-15 9:31 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Shabbaman wrote:
Old? What do you mean, old? I'm fairly sure you are younger than I am, so I take offense with that.
I'll be 45 next month. You? :P
Quote:
For instance, Abe Sargent writes nice end-of-year-reviews (meaning that, unlike the neverending spam of set reviews, he has spent some time actually playing the cards, which is worth more to me than pure speculation). You can find his 2016 and 2017 articles (as an example) here and here.
Super useful, thanks! I'll read those now.
Quote:
Me neither. Don't you have decklists or threads on your seperate decks? Do something with Deathtouch, or Gorgon tribal (there's a decklist of that around here somewhere).
Yeah, I'm thinking Snake/Gorgon/Naga tribal.
Quote:
(Ramses; Ed.) My deck is in this thread. There are some very good new cards for Ramses: Fumble and Dead Man's Chest.
Yep, those are the sorts of cards I don't know much about ;)

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-15 11:45 pm 
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Wow, that is old. I'm a healthy 39 until tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-16 1:21 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Shabbaman wrote:
Wow, that is old. I'm a healthy 39 until tomorrow.

Happy birthday! o/

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 Post subject: Re: Out of touch Old Man Needs Help
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-16 8:18 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Shabbaman wrote:
Wow, that is old. I'm a healthy 39 until tomorrow.

I'm winning! :P

Happy Birthday, young man ;)

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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