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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 6:45 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't think anyone that has responded here would be considered spikes. ...and despite what you think Kelen, we do get it. You aren't wrong in noticing that the influx of new players is "ruining" the format but there is no easy solution.

Hard rules will turn people away, even the casual players that you want to be playing with. The spikes will just find ways to exploit the game within the rules.

An excessive ban list would be impossible to catch everything and would be an excessive task for a six person RC to handle. It also would turn more people away. Where do you draw the line? Contamination must be banned. That means similar mana denial cards like Stasis, Ritual of Subdual, Hall of Gemstone, Naked Singularity, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Blood Moon, Chaos Moon, Back to Basics, Taniwha, Reality Twist, Winter Orb, Static Orb, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, I can keep going but really... That is one type of card that you have an issue with and that one issue could add 100+ cards to the banned list. That doesn't even begin to impact combo, all that does is impact the "lock" issue that only lead to 20% of wins in your meta.

Really though, who are you to be judge, jury and executioner on the "spirit of the format"? While you may not like how certain people play, it does not mean they are doing it outside the "spirit of the format". Certainly the "two card combos" with Mike/Trike, Mizzet/Curiousity, Sharuum/Sculpting Steel miss the point but not all combo is bad and there are certainly "fair/fun" uses for all of the cards listed. There are also plenty of playgroups that may like being cutthroat without pushing it too far.

Outright banning certain styles of play just causes other styles to become dominant. While you may prefer ramp/control strategies to lock/combo, you are only one player. There are five colors to the color wheel for a reason. You don't have to like all the colors but they still are intended to be played.

You also are not alone like you seem to suggest. "I tried and played all those fancy super counter cards. Thats not the point. One deck alone cannot stop three or more other dechs from abusing the format." Your own list showed all the other players playing cards to help control combo. You aren't the only one doing it, your meta is obviously trying to change things so you really should actually try talking about house ruling things. Add a point system. Flat out ban infinite combo or limit their repetitions. Limit extra turns to 2-3 per game so they can't just say, I take a million turns.

The arms race is a natural event. Your meta has to police itself. It's not something the RC can fix for you. You also need to stop thinking of commander as a low power format. It's designed for big splashy plays. It has the same legacy card pool only it's intended to use cards that don't have to be able to win the game by the third turn which means there are far more playable cards. That means there are a lot of big threats going around. Nowhere in the power level of the format does it prevent you from diplomacy or socializing. You seem to think that you cannot have fun while playing a powerful deck. You also seem to think that metagaming is only useful in Legacy... Do you hold blockers back or do you swing all in every turn? Do you play defensive cards or is everything in your deck straight up attack? You are metagaming regardless of the format. Drop the notion that you shouldn't do that because it's not Legacy. It's a part of magic. The spirit of EDH does not dictate you get your ass kicked by stronger cards because non-diplomatic interaction is frowned upon. The spirit of EDH is to play the biggest, craziest things you can with your friends and beat eachother's faces in until someone wins while still maintain an interactive, social game.

This issue is your playgroup, not the format. It's not specific to your playgroup but it appears to be especially bad there. We've given you ample advice to try and help but you seem to be taking them as attacks.

We have all been in your situation. Most of us have been able to turn things around. You do not seem like you're willing to even try without hard rules from the RC to fix what you specifically do not find fun. It's a vintage format, it will have vintage plays in it. It's not designed to be a trash draft.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 8:31 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Great post, Epsilon, agree with most of what you write. But this:

Epsilon wrote:
You aren't wrong in noticing that the influx of new players is "ruining" the format but there is no easy solution.

Where does he say that? And, more to the point, what's your reasoning behind this wildly inaccurate blanket statement about new players ruining the format?

_________________
My Commander decks:
Damia, Sage of Stone - Non-obnoxious goodstuff
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Tokens, recursion, and lifegain
Vorel of the Hull Clade - Abusing counters for fun and profit


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 9:56 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Malekoda wrote:
Great post, Epsilon, agree with most of what you write. But this:

Epsilon wrote:
You aren't wrong in noticing that the influx of new players is "ruining" the format but there is no easy solution.

Where does he say that? And, more to the point, what's your reasoning behind this wildly inaccurate blanket statement about new players ruining the format?


Every post he's made has suggested that since WOTC officially supported EDH, the "legacy spikes" have come to the game without heeding the "spirit of the format". To an extent, it is true. With the influx of new players, they are shifting to be more competetive in general.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 10:30 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Epsilon wrote:
With the influx of new players, they are shifting to be more competetive in general.

Haters gonna' hate, and douches gonna' douche. The "social contract" is really just formalized common courtesy, and those people who enjoy comboing out game after game will enjoy it whether or not they read that section of the website. If the whole problem was caused by Wizards not including a paragraph on "the social contract", the solution would be simple: Just point the offending players to this website, recognized by Wizards as the official resource of Commander material.

I'm sure lots of old-timers would like to return to when Commander was only referred to as "EDH", and you had to be one of the special few to have heard about it. Just like hipsters liked their favorite band better back when it was underground and nobody else knew about it. But an increased player base means more play groups, and without new players, the format would die.

_________________
My Commander decks:
Damia, Sage of Stone - Non-obnoxious goodstuff
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Tokens, recursion, and lifegain
Vorel of the Hull Clade - Abusing counters for fun and profit


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 10:36 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-18 7:40 am
Age: Drake
@Epsilon:
Please, Sir, don't pretend to be the hero here. I told a dozen times, that I am not here to fix my meta. Either you don't get it, or you are misreading my posts on purpose. Contamination was an example of a plain unfun card, even the RC agrees with. Read sheldons posts on starcity. They are very helpful. And I took only your wrong predication ("you are here to cry to the RC, so they make you win more") as an persoal attack (and it clearly was one). But lets try to keep things civilized, yeah?

Lets try this one out, epsilon. This one is only for you. Imagine the following ...

One evening in september you hear about a new format on a legacy tournament. And they tell you, that this is a social interactive format with a gentlemen's agreement. You don't get this at start, but the guy showing you the format, plays a duel with you and does not wreck your landbase (he could and you are manascrewed, but he does not) and you are a bit confused, cause winning and abusing are the only goals, right? That guy plays for fun. Sure he wins, but you are both having a great time. Now you are not believing, what you experienced and go to the forum he told you about (this forum). And you read the philosophy, beginning to think: "Wow. These crazy people really do believe in 'winning is not so important, than the game and the fun of everybody'" and you begin to search your cardbase for building a deck. But you don't want to be that random noob, so you take your experience with magic, read many posts of sheldon (the master of this format), perfect your decklist, balance out power, speed, strategy and disruption, put in some powerhouse cards but spare out non-interactive cards like contamination - cause this is the spirit of the format, right? Interactivity? At least sheldon tells you so - and then you go to a near store. And you have the craziest night of your magic-life.
Cause nobody seems to have read the same rules, as you did. You sit next to another new guy. Not as old and experienced as you. He is clearly new to magic and you feel a bit warmhearted. He must be fifteen years younger than yourself. You don't attack that newbie right away (social format, you remember?) and help him with some turns. He gets killed in round 6 by a palinchron-fireball after he casts a gleancrawler. Wow, you think, what was that, as the little guy craps his cards together and leaves the store silenty, never to return again. And so you ask:
"Hey, guys. That kid was new. Don't you think, this was a bit rude? I mean, he was even manascrewed. Isn't this the format for the nice guys and fair plays?" And then they shout back at you:
"Lol. No, bro. That is the game. You kill, when you can as fast as you can. See, that is the best part of commander. You can use all those silly machines, that are forbidden in modern and other formats. Seen that guy, when my fireball hit him? His sad face? So damn good! High five people! Fair plays? Where did you get that crazy shit from?" And then he skips his turn and the next player places a contamination. The game is over. Was that the social casual format you read about? Was that sheldons format? You are a bit confused. So you check decklists online, empower your deck a bit. Include nasty machines such as stripmine - crucible and more disruption. And you went out to the store in the next city. You begin to play and are hit by a mindtwist turn 5, loosing all your hand, even when you had no threat on the board.
"Sry bro", the guy in front of you tells you. "My deck has no combo and I do have to take you out as many players as I can to have a chance in ..."
You cannot hear the rest of his statement, cause at the table next to you there is a shoutout (you have never experienced such a thing in your legacy groups):
"Fuck you, fucker! Play your bitch-combo-shit. I make my deck more nasty next time! I was only one turn to slow, for the kill!"
So you lean over to them and ask:
"Yo, guys. I thought this was the format for epic games. In which turn do you have to win in commander?" So they are a bit confused, talk to each other - at least you stopped the raging for a while - and then they nod:
"Turn 7. At least. Or you have to play blue."
Is this really the format, you want to play? And you become unsure. Moving along to the next store in the next city. You could have guessed it: More angry faces, more hard fast wins. At least turn 7 was accurate. So you return to the forums and read the philosophy again. And you decide to wait and give the format a chance. Maybe in the next city this will be better. Maybe, you can tell them some stuff, the guy at the tournament told you. You give this format a try for a year and a month, play several decks, buy a lot of new cards. But what you experience on every tournament you play commander in the downtime, as well as in every store you play is not, what you read in the philosophy. There is no gentlemen spirit anywhere to be found. And you start to think, that maybe, these guys at mtgcommander.net don't know, what the people are doing with their format. Don't they need to protect their philosophy somehow? Or at least, encourage it more? So you try your best several month to change anything for the better. You try to implement house rules, play disruptive decks and even refuse to play with the meanest bullies around, but you ultimately fail. You are completly exhausted and cannot think of commander without thinking about house rule discussions, angered spikes and angry faces. The second you give up the format, you decide to post your first post while describing your experiences, cause you are ill and have a bit time to waste. Natually, you want many readers (cause you are a bit narcisstic by nature. perhaps some people of the RC themselves?) so you chose a controversal header "Commander does not work". Controversal headers are good for more viewers. Then you write a lot of words and chose never to return again. Cause, it's tha internet, and you know the flamewars. But a member of the RC shows up and askes you to post some ideas how to fix the problem. You feel understood, at last! It is late and you are tired, but you write some ideas fast. At least these are only ideas, right? They are the masters of the rules. They will know for sure, what to do with them. Then another guy answers your post. A guy named omega. He tells you, that you are not playing properly. You should encourage house rules and play more disruption. And you don't get the format at all, he get's it. Hard ball in the nuts. Didn't you wrote, that you tried everything? You read your own posts again. Indeed, you did. Then you think back to the three month you spent most of your freetime spared for magic to fix the local groups, the dozens of documents of house rules you wrote and thrashed again, the night-long discussions you made, even the evenings, when you tried your best to break the combo-decks with their own weapons (nights, that you are a bit ashamed of) and you become sad about that post. You know, that commander as a format, broke your gamer heart, with that great idea and the poor realityc your encountered and could not change to the better. That guy there, that omega, clearly has no idea, through what mess of a hell you went. And he is telling you his judgement with clear voice, insisting on his point again and again, while not getting yours. But wait! Don't you know the tone? That 'I am right, cause those guys here beside me are right, too. You do want a change for the better? Why change anything? It is fun, the way it is. Combo melting time! You are yust one guy, so you clearly must be wrong. What do you even dare to judge me? Do as I tell you, that is the only proper way.' Yes, now you remember the tone! He sounds like those spikes you encountered in your local stores. Maybe the guy who melted the newbies face with that fireball? Maybe he is upset, cause he knows your story too well from the other point of view. "One day, a guy showed up and told us about some gentlemen's fluff. Lolz. Counter tha meta, bro!" You will never know. But you decide to leave this behind you. So screw that omega guy. What does he know, right?"


Right!
I would have done the same.
To be exactly, I do right now.
Cya.

_________________
Maelstrom Wanderer - Cascading for timmy.
Karador - Greens Finest
Pheldagrif - Crazy Board Police


Last edited by kelen on 2012-Sep-24 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 11:42 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You made a thread saying the entire format is broken and that new rules should be considered to fix it. That IS asking the RC to fix it. I didn't read anything wrongly there. What else could it be? Venting?

You repeatedly state you shouldn't have to interact with the people in your meta because it's not "legacy" so you shouldn't have to metagame.

It is an issue with your Meta. We have given several options and explained why other possible options wouldn't work. If you or your meta don't want to implement the suggested fixes, there's not much else we can do. Find a new meta.

Would you really want to play in a format that you could only attack one player and if they died they could take you out of the game in the process?

Your sob story is sad but everywhere is not like this. Those players are major jerks. Find a new playgroup. Nicer players do exist as made obvious by the person that introduced you to the format.

No, I'm not one of the spikes in your story. I deliberately hold back from major douche plays by not building them into my decks and even got Palinchron banned in my meta because it is too easy. You're welcome to think of me as an asshole that doesn't get it though as I'm not about to apologize for being blunt.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 12:51 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think you are asking for a format-wide fix to repair your local meta.

You actually have some great ideas on how to fix things, and you could definitely apply them to your beer and pretzels games. Or you could go play at your local store and still play just with your friends and when random people want to join in tell them, "These are the special rules we follow. We think it makes the game more fun. Do you have a deck like that? ... No? Would you like to borrow one of mine for this week?" If your games are actually more fun for people, they will start building decks to play with you and the meta will shift from "big vintage" to your version of commander - not because the other killer decks went away, but because getting a game of your restricted variant will be just as easy.

And if only a few of your friends ever decide they like your variant better, then what have you lost? You just get to play the way you want to with a few friends. Sounds like a win to me.

So, I say, run with your 25 rares or $200 deck or whatever idea appeals to you the most and ignore everyone who wants to play cutthroat.

_________________
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Cryocerete (sp?)


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 2:18 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-18 7:40 am
Age: Drake
@Epsilon
You were a bit rude, I was a bit mean ;) As fair, as it gets in the internet. I think, we are even now. Yes, there was a bit venting involved, too. But no, I don't believe, that you are a dick. Honestly. I must have gotten a nerve or something with you. I believe you are a tame spike, maybe even one, that I would like to play with. Have a nice day. And here, have a kitten to cheer you up:

Image

@Crokaycete
I really like your Idea. Not breaking them with cards, bending the meta or a faster cut through the throat, but making several balanced decks and borrowing them to interested players tired of the combo shit? (*nod* a bis costy, but I don't care) Creating a safe learning bubble and letting them encounter fun in a douchebag-card-free environment? And, when they like it, they maybe construct their own decks that way? Show and tell. This is brilliant Sir! And this will be my answer, if I ever try to play commander again.

Thank you all for your comments.

_________________
Maelstrom Wanderer - Cascading for timmy.
Karador - Greens Finest
Pheldagrif - Crazy Board Police


Last edited by kelen on 2012-Sep-24 2:29 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 2:22 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kelen wrote:
@Epsilon
I really like your Idea. Not breaking them with cards, bending the meta or a faster cut through the throat, but making several balanced decks and borrowing them to interested players tired of the combo shit? (*nod* a bis costy, but I don't care) Creating a safe learning bubble and letting them encounter fun in a douchebag-card-free environment? And, when they like it, they maybe construct their own decks that way? Show and tell. This is brilliant Sir! And this will be my answer, if I ever try to play commander again.

Thank you all for your comments.


You can always cube it, that alleviates the comboness of the format


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-03 7:15 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Sep-22 12:20 am
Age: Wyvern
I Have to agree with Kelen in his experience. A similar thing happened to me. There was an alternate state to this though where all the players just sat around for an hour turning cards until someone incidentally won. It wasn't enjoyable either way.

To Combat this I brought out some alternate Rules called EDH:Lite (they are on this forum somewhere). It changed the environment into a Faster technical style, removed the pointless tanking and gave players the ability to find solutions to opponents. I found it much more enjoyable and far far more interactive than the standard EDH. Problem is that because I wrote the rules, people weren't very accepting.

I just play Standard and Pre-releases these days. Meeting a newb in a heads up, travelling to the capital and discussing the value of new cards is about as social as I can get these days. EDH was a waste of time for me.

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Want the Commander Experience without the Dawdle?
Try EDH: Lite


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-09 5:19 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-18 7:40 am
Age: Drake
Gentlemen's Rules, written down ...

- EDH is a gentlemen's game. Play relaxed. Be polite.
- EDH is a casual game. Don't cry for a judge.
- EDH is a long game. Don't let "combo away" be your main strategy.
- EDH is a fun game. Don't play dickhead "everybodyisgonnahateme" decks.
- EDH is a style game. Don't build good stuff. Build something with a theme.
- EDH is not chess. Don't take longer than ~1 Minute for your turn.

You are doing if wrong, if ...
- Winning is your only fun at the table
- You want to win, no matter how
- you copied your deck of the internet
- you play a commander, because he is "broken" (too strong)
- you think about a meta or counter meta
- you want to win an EDH-competition

As an addition, you are a dickhead, if ...
- you think you can ignore the social contract of EDH
- you ever told a new player, his deck "was crap" and he should "never play that crap again"
- you threw other players cards around

_________________
Maelstrom Wanderer - Cascading for timmy.
Karador - Greens Finest
Pheldagrif - Crazy Board Police


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 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-29 6:02 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-11 1:58 am
Age: Hatchling
Sheldon is a horrible example of "edh player" despite being the "father" of the format; witness any report where he cries about an infinite turn combo, and they boot the player from the table, and he wins a few turns later with a graveyard-based combo turn that takes 5 minutes... basically the same thing as taking multiple turns in 5 minutes. Basically, if Sheldon combos out, it's okay, but if other people do, it's not in the spirit of the format. Or if they do it in a non-sheldon approved combo. Etc. He powergames just as hard as the person wanting to win, he just does it within a structure HE approves of.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-29 6:32 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
walkerdog wrote:
Sheldon is a horrible example of "edh player" despite being the "father" of the format; witness any report where he cries about an infinite turn combo, and they boot the player from the table, and he wins a few turns later with a graveyard-based combo turn that takes 5 minutes... basically the same thing as taking multiple turns in 5 minutes. Basically, if Sheldon combos out, it's okay, but if other people do, it's not in the spirit of the format. Or if they do it in a non-sheldon approved combo. Etc. He powergames just as hard as the person wanting to win, he just does it within a structure HE approves of.


And he hates puppies... lets get the torches and pitch forks!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-29 6:39 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'd like to add a few things to this,
kelen wrote:
Gentlemen's Rules, written down ...

- EDH is a gentlemen's game. Play relaxed. Be polite.

Or, try to be as nice as possible, while eviscerating your opponent.(s)
Quote:
- EDH is a casual game. Don't cry for a judge.

But always check up on the latest oracle wordings and try to have someone that is legitimately knowledge about card interactions, hopefully, that person isn't corrupt.
Quote:
- EDH is a long game. Don't let "combo away" be your main strategy.

Unless its been about an hour; or at least somewhere around turn 20.
Quote:
- EDH is a fun game. Don't play dickhead "everybodyisgonnahateme" decks.

I will find you, and then I will make you eat your cards for this.
Quote:
- EDH is a style game. Don't build good stuff. Build something with a theme.
And if you can't do that, at least try not to just build a "goodstuff" deck. Try adding in a few pet cards; even if they are a little worse then the "gg" options.
Quote:
- EDH is not chess. Don't take longer than ~1 Minute for your turn.
Unless you're playing Azusa Vomit or Rayne Infinite Stop combo decks.


And now to answer the following...
Quote:
You are doing if wrong, if ...
- Winning is your only fun at the table
- You want to win, no matter how
- you copied your deck of the internet
- you play a commander, because he is "broken" (too strong)
- you think about a meta or counter meta
- you want to win an EDH-competition

No, making good humor is why I'm there :D
Nope, but I do enjoy seeing my decks win against people who spend far to much money on their decks compared to mine.
Nope.
Azusa is just the only good option for green, kiki-jiki for red. I mean, just look at my list of generals, Rayne? Xira? Trostroni? lol
Theres EDH metas? woah....
No-Compete for me ^_^
Quote:
As an addition, you are a dickhead, if ...
- you think you can ignore the social contract of EDH
- you ever told a new player, his deck "was crap" and he should "never play that crap again"
- you threw other players cards around

[/quote]
Nope.
I've told players, hey, can I see your deck? Then I start dropping bad cards out and replacing them so they can enjoy their deck better against the group I play in.
I've never flipped or damaged anyones cards but my own ^_^


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 Post subject: Re: Commander has it's problems
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-02 1:56 pm 

Joined: 2009-Aug-03 8:55 am
Age: Elder Dragon
@ Kelen: Check out Realms.

The pros and cons of the format are often one and the same:

Shared decks. This is good because everyone is on equal footing, but bad because it lacks the ego investment.

No mana screw/flood. This is good because it comes down to skill, but... luck is a nice buffer for the MTG loss psychology.

You need someone to build the deck. This is great if you have an OCD type to balance an enormous assortment of cards. If you don't, a slopped-together deck is less conducive to fun.


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