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 Post subject: Re: Two basic lands in the command zone
AgePosted: 2014-Oct-24 4:24 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
crokaycete wrote:
And if I'm not drawing enough lands I also have 2 other people to deal with various threats that would kill me until I have the opportunity to topdeck some lands and get back in the game. There is nothing special about "mana screw" vs "answer screw."
There is a world of difference. Turns in EDH get increasingly powerful through the beginning of the game because people spend their new resources to get more resources, so when you're finally taking effective turn 4 as everybody else is taking turn 6, your chances of even making a meaningful impact on the game are slim.

When the thing holding you back is gone in the case of answer screw, you can start contributing to the ongoing dialog at the moment the roadblock is gone, and that is assuming that it is something that actually trumps you like Akroma's Memorial. If you're talking about something that is just merely a kill-on-sight card like Mirari's Wake or Lurking Predators, or something that is sitting there daring you to play more cards like Pernicious Deed or Nevinyrral's Disk, you may still be in the game even if you are at a disadvantage for the time being.

The gap between not being able to do anything versus not being able to do as much as you'd like is huge, as is the gap between being beaten by something your opponent chose to include in a deck rather than sitting there watching your opponents take increasingly longer turns as you continue to get daggered by cards off the top.

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Also, if a person has nothing to do except draw and discard, that is a deck construction or mulligan decision problem. This player probably deserves to have a sucky game so that he or she can learn a lesson about building their decks or mulliganing in a more realistic way.
Even with the soft mulligan rules of EDH, screw (both mana and color) happen. If you keep a 3 lander that doesn't have ramp, you can expect about 1 in 16 games to see you miss your 4th mana source (just using 50% chance per step of hitting mana as a quick and dirty approximation and ignoring that you're drawing without replacement).

Quote:
Hearthstone has all the strategic depth of a kiddy pool. One of the big reasons for that is that you automatically get perfect mana every game. When you remove mana as a way of introducing both variance and strategic decision making, you just make the game worse.

Who is talking about perfect mana? This is +2 lands, which means mana screw looks a lot more like curving to 5 before you stall instead of bricking for 3 turns on 3 lands. Unless you are playing in a viciously rapid metagame, there are still plenty of rewards for building your deck with the plan of curving up to 8+ mana available. Hitting 5 still puts you at a disadvantage, but being stuck on 3 cripples you.

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I can't make you read text in a different tone than you want to read it. But it's not me imposing that tone, and I won't take responsibility for the way you are choosing to read it.

Then you are communicating poorly. When you utilize a construction that is going to default to a certain tone, it is on you to make it clear if that is not the tone you intend. If you don't think that the default tone for exactly/did you think is a condescending rhetorical question, you are blissfully ignorant of pop culture. Exactly how did you think I would read it?


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 Post subject: Re: Two basic lands in the command zone
AgePosted: 2014-Oct-24 5:21 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
JJackson wrote:
Exactly how did you think I would read it?
As a regular rhetorical question.
JJackson wrote:
If you keep a 3 lander that doesn't have ramp, you can expect about 1 in 16 games to see you miss your 4th mana source
But if you have a hand that can't cast a spell with those 3 lands, you shouldn't have kept it. And if you are casting spells, those spells should either draw you more cards or make reduce the negative effects of missing your 4th land. This is just play error.
JJackson wrote:
when you're finally taking effective turn 4 as everybody else is taking turn 6, your chances of even making a meaningful impact on the game are slim.
Disagree. EDH has powerful effects, but it also has powerful resets. If nobody casts removal spells, then the difference will multiply. But if other players are playing threats and removal while you are just waiting to draw lands, you should have more resources when the dust settles. There is a saying that "Mana screw beats mana flood." This is because if you survive long enough to draw lands, you already have lots of stuff to do with them. The exact same principle applies here.
JJackson wrote:
plenty of rewards for building your deck with the plan of curving up to 8+ mana
If people want to curve out to 8, they just need to play 60 mana/ramp. That will do a fine job of getting them to 5 consistently. That's what I do when I want a crazy high curve.

The fundamental disagreement here is that you think it's good to softball people and protect them from their own bad decisions in EDH. I think people should lose and have a bad time when necessary so that they learn a lesson and do a better job next time. If players want to play expensive spells, they should have to play a ton of mana sources. That's the tradeoff, and it's a fair one. It makes more strategies viable and forces people to make actual decisions instead of just jamming all the most powerful cards they own into a big pile.

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 Post subject: Re: Two basic lands in the command zone
AgePosted: 2014-Oct-28 8:15 am 

Joined: 2009-Aug-03 8:55 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I would test skipping a draw to put a basic land in your hand. Works great in the variant we've been playing for years, and it keeps from warping the normal rules too much.

I also really like emblems to describe variant rules.

Words of Land
Emblem
You begin the game with 2 basic lands in your command zone.
1: The next time you would draw a card this turn, put a basic land from your command zone into your hand instead.

I could see decks trimming a land with this rule, but I don't think that's a huge deal unless they plug the hole with a tutor. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Two basic lands in the command zone
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-02 8:23 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
OP sounds like a good idea. I'm going to try letting each player replace a draw with the basic land of their choice once per game. I don't think that would do anything more than help unlucky people have a good game.

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 Post subject: Re: Two basic lands in the command zone
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-02 7:53 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I have let the guy that was stuck on 3 land since turn 7 go fetch a basic before, but the next week he had the same issue... and the week after that. It seems that it really depends on the person. I have been mana screwed and mana flooded, it is something that happens no matter how perfect your mana base or your shuffling technique... but it is not something that should happen every game or even every other game. I would be surprised if it happened more often than one in ten games when you have a decent mana base and general mulligans.

When I went to tournaments I would count how many times I had to mulligan in a given night. If I had to mulligan more than 1-2 times, it was generally because I had issues with my mana base, EDH has more liberal mulliganing than tournaments. If you have to mulligan more than a time or two than that is a deck construction issue more often than not.

One game that I played on the threads here I kept a 4 land hand... and got my 5th land the turn before I died... I did almost nothing relevant that game. You are going to have games like that and they do suck, but as was previously stated, learning to get your mana curve and your mana base better is more constructive than having a crutch to lean on.

Ultimately, it is going to be subjective/situational. Not everybody is at the same level and not everybody cares enough to perfect their mana bases. If you are enabling laziness, I am against that, but some people are not up to par (my 5 year old son for example) or just are not going to change (like the guy mentioned above, he has a mental handicap. He functions at about a 10 year old level so he gets most things but some things are just beyond him.)

I think this is an acceptable house rule if you have some of those situations, but there is no reason to change the rules for EDH or MtG in general to accommodate poor deck building and the random factor that enables players of slightly less skill to take down titans.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Two basic lands in the command zone
AgePosted: 2015-Jan-04 1:25 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-03 6:12 am
Age: Wyvern
honestly this will solve no issues at all, it just means people would mulligan diffrently and put less lands in the deck, people arent going to keap a hand with 5 land and 4 nonlands( im counting the to bonus lands as part of hand) there gonna atleast dump 1 land hoping for a new goodie to play with


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