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 Post subject: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 3:05 am 

Joined: 2019-May-30 2:59 am
Age: Hatchling
This idea I got while playing a game called Hearthstone. For those who haven't , it basically gives you an additional mana every turn until you have 10 then it stops. My idea is to separate all lands from your deck and then shuffle them face down next to your spell deck. Every turn you flip one land and place it in play. The only suggestion is maybe ban land retrieval cards that would make that format a little too powerful.
Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 7:16 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The Mana system is one of the things that makes Magic work. If you are guaranteed to have <x> mana where it's turn <x> it drastically changes how the game works. Aside from anything else, it makes the early drops even less relevant than they already are, as you're 100% guaranteed to start casting your 6 drops on turn 6 (and earlier, if you have mana rocks/dorks in your "spell" deck.

It's an idea that is very often proposed to Mark Rosewater on his blog and he shoots it down every time. It removes a lot of variance from the game, and that is not a good thing, although as someone who has a reputation for getting land screwed more than the average person, I understand the desire for it. But it would make Magic a worse game, not a better one.

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 7:26 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
To clarify, do you build a deck with roughly 33-38 lands and then seperate them or do I just grab 8-12 lands I want and build a deck of 91-87 cards?

I think it would make for way more consistant games, the better player is more likely to win. That doesn't mean that it is completely bad, but there is a reason we do not all just play chess. Even more so for fans of a singleton 100 card format. Don't get me wrong I try to play vintage as often as I can (which is almost never) but part of the excitement is "Does he top-deck the thing he needs to win?"

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 7:34 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
It removes a lot of variance from the game, and that is not a good thing, [...] it would make Magic a worse game, not a better one.

I don't really agree with that sentiment. It would definitely make the game drastically different, but that doesn't mean it would be inherently bad. It could be a fun variant, but it definitely wouldn't be the same Magic we play now, and it would likely require various tweaks and a new banlist to make it balanced.

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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 1:12 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Other CCGs have tried to do similar things (in essence, to "solve" the mana screw/flood problem) -- and you'll note that Magic is still around, and most of those other ones aren't.

Hearthstone has, essentially, pulled it off -- but it was a game built from the ground up with that assumption. It probably influenced their deck building restrictions as well as how cards work.

As such, they also don't have "lands" with non-mana abilities. So the comparison starts to look worse and worse for trying to just transplant the idea of always gaining 1 mana source every turn.

As for making the game 'worse' -- other games have borne that idea out. Many people don't like playing Chess, as the better player has an advantage over a less experienced one (and that advantage grows significantly as the difference in skill increases.) One of the aspects of Magic is the variance, which means that the better player doesn't always win (they may get mana screwed, while the less experience player hits their curve just fine). This allows for the less experienced player to have a chance against the better player. But overall, the better player will win more matches. Removing that variability can remove the tension & fun in the game, and for what the game is trying to do -- become a worse game.

Willbender wrote:
It would definitely make the game drastically different, but that doesn't mean it would be inherently bad.
Depends on the goal of the game (not "to win" .. that's the goal of the player of the game). For Magic and what it's trying to do -- it'd be a worse game.


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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 4:56 am 

Joined: 2019-May-30 2:59 am
Age: Hatchling
Thank you all for your comments, do you think this format would work with certain cards banned? But I suppose you're right in saying that having a variant mana draw does add to the game. What if instead of flipping one each turn you get the choice to either draw from the land deck or the spell deck?


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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 5:35 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It's still a decently powerful effect. You're essentially giving an Abundance to everyone. As a modification to the game... it would be weird.

So my question to you would be, instead of us just evaluating your suggestions -- what is the end goal you are trying to achieve? Perhaps doing some brainstorming instead of just evaluating would be more beneficial? And then we can also compare ideas in how well if fulfills the objective instead of just how it may or may not affect the game.

So, you go the idea from Hearthstone -- so what is it you want to achieve? Do you just want to ensure that everyone can play a land each turn? Or is there something else you have in mind?


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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 10:48 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Otaria
This sounds a little like a game that was played at our LGS for a while- -campily named "Force of Will."

Each deck has an [exactly] 10 card "mana stone deck," an [exactly] 60 card "spell deck," and a commander.

Every commander has the activated ability "Tap: put the top card of your mana stone deck onto the battlefield." This can be activated in the command zone or on the battlefield. (It untaps as normal in the CZ.)

There are plenty of other rules specific to that game, but I thought that was a unique way to handle mana. (Of note, it meant that if you wanted to use your commander as a combat monster, you couldn't continue to advance your mana.)

I'm not sure it would translate well to multiplayer Magic, though.

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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-06 3:14 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Carthain wrote:
Other CCGs have tried to do similar things (in essence, to "solve" the mana screw/flood problem) -- and you'll note that Magic is still around, and most of those other ones aren't.


I had forgotten about it 'til I read this post, but I tried playing a couple different "separate deck" games that made it to print: the Hasbro My Little Pony Game, and Privateer Press's Warmachine living card game (which, oddly enough, had very similar core mechanics).

The games were very complicated and un-fun... in an effort to make them "not Magic" (ie, less resource variance), they inadvertently were orders of magnitude more complicated. Instead of one source of variance, they now had two, and the player had to manage both the play choices of how to use the deck, and manage the complications of the two decks interacting with each other.

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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 12:34 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-05 11:49 pm
Age: Wyvern
tengence wrote:
This idea I got while playing a game called Hearthstone. For those who haven't , it basically gives you an additional mana every turn until you have 10 then it stops. My idea is to separate all lands from your deck and then shuffle them face down next to your spell deck. Every turn you flip one land and place it in play. The only suggestion is maybe ban land retrieval cards that would make that format a little too powerful.
Thoughts?


I think that by tweaking this idea it could be a fun Commander variant or house rule. Maybe instead of having two separate decks, keep decks the way they are, and instead have a universal rule that allows a player to pay some sort of cost in exchange for a Rampant Growth effect once per turn if they meet certain requirements. The cost could be skipping their draw step or even paying mana equal to the number of lands they have in play, and the requirement could be that they must have less than ten lands in play, and that they haven't played a land this turn. It could maybe also be an effect that they can only activate on their end step to prevent people from taking advantage of the rule too much.


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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 3:08 am 

Joined: 2018-Mar-20 10:30 am
Age: Hatchling
tengence wrote:
Thank you all for your comments, do you think this format would work with certain cards banned? But I suppose you're right in saying that having a variant mana draw does add to the game. What if instead of flipping one each turn you get the choice to either draw from the land deck or the spell deck?


I love it, here's my deck:

Commander
Bartel Runeaxe

Spell Deck
Dark Ritual
Simian Spirit Guide
Seething Song
Sneak Attack
Hydra Omnivore
Tainted Strike
Mutagenic Growth

Land deck
92 Swamps

When can we play?


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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-07 9:43 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Melriken wrote:


That, sir or madam, is a thing of beauty and I love it.

When are we getting that "+1" post ranking button again?

:D

When can we play?

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

"I'm happy to serve as a quote machine" - Sheldon


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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-11 4:43 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think it could work if your "mana deck" could only contain basic lands and if you wanted nonbasics you would have to run them in your "main deck".

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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-12 3:50 am 

Joined: 2018-Mar-20 10:30 am
Age: Hatchling
Bruticus wrote:
I think it could work if your "mana deck" could only contain basic lands and if you wanted nonbasics you would have to run them in your "main deck".

You might want to read a few more posts...

Fundamentally I think the OP is trying to fix a problem that they don’t understand and that has been attempted MANY times always creating something worse than what they started with. At a minimum this would need to force both the land and the spell deck to a minimum of 50 cards, and there are issues even there... if non-basics go to the spell deck then the basic portion can be 10,000 cards (you want to remove the 100 card limit so you can force both decks over 50 cards to avoid things like what I did above.) and make you immune to mill... so you want all land in the land deck, but then where does Maze of Ith go? What about the Ixalan transform cards? Westvale Abby?

So let’s say that each deck must be 50-100 cards, the total must be 100-150 cards, all land must go in the land deck and all non-lands in the spell deck... (use the front face of doublefaced cards). I think this is on the power level of at least a 10 card starting hand...

I think you are better off with a ‘show your zero or 7 land hand during mulligan for a free mulligan’ rule and deal with any remaining bad draws (which can always be mulliganed normally).


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 Post subject: Re: One Land Deck and One spell deck
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-12 10:43 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I did read the other posts. I disagree with Mark Rosewater, and I believe there could be a variant that would work with enough testing. It obviously would lead to different decks and ways of playing, but that is the whole point of calling it a variant.

Here's where I would start testing the variant, and through enough tinkering I am sure you could find a fun balance:

When you begin the game you may place any number of basic land cards into the command zone in a randomized face-down pile. Once per turn you may play the top card from the pile when you could normally play a land. Your EDH Deck limit is 75 cards including the commander and your starting hand size is 5.

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