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 Post subject: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 9:38 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
Hey Community.

Our local playgroup has run into the question of "Should the Bringer only be allowed in 5 color decks?" The Reasoning:

Each bringer has a "color" determined affect so to speak, The blue one gives card draw, the white one recurrs artifacts, the black one tutors, the red one borrows creatures and gives them haste, and the green one makes tokens.

So if each of the bringers seems to lend itself purely to one of the five colors, why can't they be used in decks running their primary color?.

Bringer of the White Dawn
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Bringer of the Blue Dawn
Bringer of the Green Dawn
Bringer of the Red Dawn

The reason why these poor little runts can't current be used in Mono-2-3-4 color decks, it because they have an "ALTERNATE CASTING COST" ability. This ability doesn't apply to anything they are capable of once they are in play...and has no effect on the game other than if you are playing a 5 color deck you can get a bringer on turn 5 instead of Turn 9 like other decks :P

What do you guys think? My local playgroup is kinda wanting to house rule these guys so they are allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 9:44 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
So do it.

Discussing it here is pointless because the color identity rules are one of the defining features of the format and isn't going to change, nor is the RC going to add "special case" rules for a small group of cards. If your playgroup wants to do it, do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 9:49 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
I don't think discussing it with the community is a terrible thing regardless of your point that it is unlikely to cause a change in the current rules. I think that it could promote a valuable discussion that might give me some good insight, that I can share with the local playgroup.

Who knows, maybe cards like the Bringer's weren't thought of when the rules were made, and like any format has a banned list, they sometimes also have other "Special rules/allowances"

I am not expecting anything from this thread but to recieve the input of other players from accross the community. Maybe another playgroup also dealt with this issue recently and can offer a suggestion *shrugs*

No Harm in talking about it, so it isn't pointless to me. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:06 am 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This is one of the most common house rules, because you're totally right. In fact, long ago there actually was a special rule allowing you to ignore their alternate cost while deck building. Back then there was a bunch of format specific errata (Karakas was unbanned and couldn't hit generals, a couple of the life-total matters cards had their numbers changed), but then we decided that was dumb, inevitably led to inconsistencies in the rules, and the format was simply cleaner and easier to understand without them.

Long story short, go ahead and play the Bringers. They're cool, powerful and clearly have a monocolour identity from a concept perspective. The official rules won't change, though, because having separate rules for individual cards isn't worth it in the big picture.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:19 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
CanadianCole wrote:
The reason why these poor little runts can't current be used in Mono-2-3-4 color decks, it because they have an "ALTERNATE CASTING COST" ability.
The real key to making good rules is constancy and fairness. You don't want to make an Ad Hoc change to only affect 5 cards; you would want to reword the rules themselves, and there might be consequences you did not foresee in doing so.

Do hybrid cards -for example- count as an "alternate cost?" Would you allow Flame Javelin in every deck?
(and, yes, I see nothing wrong with doing so, but do you?)
Killane wrote:
Discussing it here is pointless because the color identity rules are one of the defining features of the format and isn't going to change, nor is the RC going to add "special case" rules for a small group of cards.

A rather fatalist attitude. The rules of man can be changed by man.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:36 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
No 5 that is a different type of thing all together.

Hybrid cards have a casting cost [color] in the top right. That card should only be played in decks that have a commander with Red in their color identity.

The Bringers aren't hybrid cards because if they were then their casting cost would look like

(4)(1)(1)(1)W W
/ / / / /
R U B G W

The alternate casting cost of the Bringers isn't making them a hybrid card and you know that :P It's an optional part of their ability that makes it easier for a five color deck to play them. I read your ideas in your post about allowing off color cards in decks, but I think the Bringers are a different issue entirely.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:39 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I just want to chime in for this thread,

other then extreme basket cases - this entire thread is all about allowing the inclusion of the non-red Bringers.


Just sayin'.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:41 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-29 9:22 am
Age: Drake
Location: New Hampshire
Then you're going to have to better define what you mean. Currently this is the rule preventing Bringers in non-5C decks:

903.4. The Commander variant uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is the color or colors of any mana symbols in that card's mana cost or rules text, plus any colors defined by its characteristic-defining abilities (see rule 604.3) or color indicator (see rule 204).

Would you change it to:
Proposed rule 903.4. The Commander variant uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is the color or colors of any mana symbols in that card's mana cost or rules text (Except if the card has 'Bringer' in the name, because they're -like- totally cool), plus any colors defined by its characteristic-defining abilities (see rule 604.3) or color indicator (see rule 204).

:?:

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:46 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Would it be that hard to have a rule that said "alternate casting costs are not considered when determining the color identity of the card"?

I mean, it's LESS simple than the current rules, but it's not that complex either.

(Personally, I'd like to exclude kicker costs, too. I mean, if you really WANT to play Desolation Angel in mono-black, I say more power to you.)

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:50 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
Proposed rule 903.4. The Commander variant uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is the color or colors of any mana symbols in that card's mana cost or rules text, with the exception of alternate casting costs and kicker costs, plus any colors defined by its characteristic-defining abilities (see rule 604.3) or color indicator (see rule 204).


Ten extra words. Not that terrible, is it?

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crokaycete wrote:
When casting Elephant Ambush, it is appropriate to yell "I was behind the tree, you stupid bastard" to announce the spell.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:54 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
Well I am just going to sift through the pile of smart ass and do my best to answer the point you chose to make through use of clever although ultimately rude means.

------------

Proposed Rule 903.4 The Commander uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is determined by any mana symbols that appear in that card's mana cost and rules text, if and when that mana symbol is used in the activation/trigger of a specific characteristic-defined ability (see Rule 604.3).

This would allwo for cards like the Bringer. But not allow for Hybrids, or Cards with off color kickers/activated/triggered abilities.

Though, I am not a ruleslawyer so I may have mucked up *shrugs* Did my best.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:58 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-29 9:22 am
Age: Drake
Location: New Hampshire
Well, I did not quote the all of the subrules of the rule:

903.4. The Commander variant uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is the color or colors of any mana symbols in that card's mana cost or rules text, plus any colors defined by its characteristic-defining abilities (see rule 604.3) or color indicator (see rule 204).
903.4a. Color identity is established before the game begins.
903.4b. Reminder text is ignored when determining a card's color identity. See rule 207.2.
903.4c. The back face of a double-faced card (see rule 711) is included when determining a card's color identity.


So, there already IS an exception for reminder text -as in- there is precedent for such a thing.
(I mean, reminder text is not part of the rules of a card -which is what 207 is about- but, just sayin')

CanadianCole wrote:
Well I am just going to sift through the pile of smart ass and do my best to answer the point you chose to make through use of clever although ultimately rude means.

If this is directed at me then I apologize. My choice of wording was meant to be humorous, not meant to be mocking. I do understand how it might have come off as such, and if you were offended then allow me to extend my deepest regret at my poor choice. I fully admit my words were flippant, but please understand they were meant as a jest and nothing more.

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Last edited by 5ColorControl on 2012-Mar-01 11:31 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 11:05 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So, that rule about reminder text isn't so much an actual rule as it is a REMINDER of the actual rules about reminder text? :P

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crokaycete wrote:
When casting Elephant Ambush, it is appropriate to yell "I was behind the tree, you stupid bastard" to announce the spell.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 11:12 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
CanadianCole wrote:
Well I am just going to sift through the pile of smart ass and do my best to answer the point you chose to make through use of clever although ultimately rude means.

------------

Proposed Rule 903.4 The Commander uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is determined by any mana symbols that appear in that card's mana cost and rules text, if and when that mana symbol is used in the activation/trigger of a specific characteristic-defined ability (see Rule 604.3).

This would allwo for cards like the Bringer. But not allow for Hybrids, or Cards with off color kickers/activated/triggered abilities.

Though, I am not a ruleslawyer so I may have mucked up *shrugs* Did my best.



So does this new version of the rule that i created satisfy your question 5color?


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 11:25 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-29 9:22 am
Age: Drake
Location: New Hampshire
CanadianCole wrote:
So does this new version of the rule that i created satisfy your question 5color?

No, because your proposed rule still does not allow for Bringers. The alternate cost is in its rules text.

However, I think it might be best for all parties involved if I just leave with my ignorance of what exactly you're trying to accomplish. I understand the overall goal and I don't think it would be fruitful for either of us to work out the nitty-gritty parts together.

I wish you luck.

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